12 ms·

ideally a coop of some variety This is the role I feel like podman, the tool developed by Red Hat, is filling.

quaintdev 4y ago
Podman is great and is first class citizen on Fedora. It also integrates nicely with SystemD. My only gripe with it is not many developers provide podman configuration on their install pages like they do with docker compose
- regularfry 4y ago
  I'm using docker-compose with a podman VM for development on a mac. Works ok so far. It wasn't quite slick enough when Docker pulled the licence switch last year, but the experience in the last couple of months has been pretty painless.
- majewsky 4y ago
  Tangent: Why is the misspelling "SystemD" so common, when it has always been "systemd"? I would understand "Systemd" or "SYSTEMD" or something, but why specifically this weird spelling?
  - microtonal 4y ago
    People not familiar with tacking on a lowercased ‘d’ to the name for daemons?
  - robohoe 4y ago
    Probably to specifically call it out as "systemd" versus autocorrected misspelling of "systems".
  - kachnuv_ocasek 4y ago
    I've always thought of it as in analogy to System V.
    - cosmojg 4y ago
      Nah, it's French. > System D is a manner of responding to challenges that require one to have the ability to think quickly, to adapt, and to improvise when getting a job done. > The term is a direct translation of French Système D. The letter D refers to any one of the French nouns débrouille, débrouillardise or démerde (French slang). The verbs se débrouiller and se démerder mean to make do, to manage, especially in an adverse situation. Basically, it refers to one's ability and need to be resourceful. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_D
    - yrro 4y ago
      Interestingly, https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/#spelling https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/#spelling says... > But then again, if [calling it systemd] appears too simple to you, call it (but never spell it!) System Five Hundred since D is the roman numeral for 500 (this also clarifies the relation to System V, right?).
  - misterS 4y ago
    Instinctively applying Pascal case, maybe?
- yrro 4y ago
  Fortunately you can use docker-compose with Podman these days. (There have been a few false starts so I'm specifically referring to the vanilla unmodified docker-compose that makes Docker API calls to a UNIX socket which Podman can listen to).
jacooper 4y ago
Its not as easy nor as simple as docker + docker compose.
- ilovecaching 4y ago
  It’s literally OCI compatible, integrates with systemd and LSM, and runs rootless by default. Podman is 100000% better designed on the inside with the same interface on the outside.
  - dontlaugh 4y ago
    It’s the lack of fully compatible compose that matters most.
    - jacooper 4y ago
      Podman appears to support the compose v2 spec, and the socket API, but still not fully supporting buildkit. https://www.redhat.com/sysadmin/podman-compose-docker-compose https://www.redhat.com/sysadmin/podman-compose-docker-compos...
  - jacooper 4y ago
    Rootless networking is still a mess with no IP source propagation and much slower performance. So for most users docker with userNS-remapping is actually a better choice. Also systemd integration isn't a plus for me, I don't want to deal with SystemD just to have a container start on startup.
    - yrro 4y ago
      I think --network=pasta: helps with source IP preservation. Regardless that has never bothered me since I'm only using podman or docker for local development...
      - jacooper 4y ago
        Hmmm, pasta seems to solve all rootless networking issues... https://github.com/containers/podman/pull/16141 https://github.com/containers/podman/pull/16141
raesene9 4y ago
This is more about Docker hub than Docker. Image hosting is expensive at scale, and someone's got to pay for the compute/storage/network...
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  I agree. The core devs should create a new company and focus just on the tools, with a simple, scaling licence model for them. As far as DockerHub goes, the OSS hosting costs do need to be solved, but surely they can be.
  - raesene9 4y ago
    I'm not sure it's easy. We're seeing other open source projects like Kubernetes struggle with hosting costs, and that's just one project. Ideally it'd be great to see the industry fund it, but with budget cuts in tech. I'm not sure that'll happen...
    - robertlagrant 4y ago
      I haven't seen that, but I haven't been following along. I'd assumed they would be very Google-funded still. Is it a general CNCF problem?
      - raesene9 4y ago
        So I'm not in the details of this but I understand from k8s slack that there is a fixed GCP budget for image hosting and Kubernetes is getting through it too quickly which is why they're moving the registry domain to a generic one from a GCP specific one, to allow for other funding to be found and used.
- phkahler 4y ago
  >> Image hosting is expensive at scale, and someone's got to pay for the compute/storage/network.. Bit Torrent would beg to differ.
sofixa 4y ago
How is a tool developed by, and strongly pushed by (to the point of strongarming customers to transition to their tool, features lacking be damned) a corporation, especially one owned by IBM, filling the role of a coop-developed tool?

Podman is great and is first class citizen on Fedora. It also integrates nicely with SystemD. My only gripe with it is not many developers provide podman configuration on their install pages like they do with docker compose

regularfry 4y ago
I'm using docker-compose with a podman VM for development on a mac. Works ok so far. It wasn't quite slick enough when Docker pulled the licence switch last year, but the experience in the last couple of months has been pretty painless.
majewsky 4y ago
Tangent: Why is the misspelling "SystemD" so common, when it has always been "systemd"? I would understand "Systemd" or "SYSTEMD" or something, but why specifically this weird spelling?
- microtonal 4y ago
  People not familiar with tacking on a lowercased ‘d’ to the name for daemons?
- robohoe 4y ago
  Probably to specifically call it out as "systemd" versus autocorrected misspelling of "systems".
- kachnuv_ocasek 4y ago
  I've always thought of it as in analogy to System V.
  - cosmojg 4y ago
    Nah, it's French. > System D is a manner of responding to challenges that require one to have the ability to think quickly, to adapt, and to improvise when getting a job done. > The term is a direct translation of French Système D. The letter D refers to any one of the French nouns débrouille, débrouillardise or démerde (French slang). The verbs se débrouiller and se démerder mean to make do, to manage, especially in an adverse situation. Basically, it refers to one's ability and need to be resourceful. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_D
  - yrro 4y ago
    Interestingly, https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/#spelling https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/#spelling says... > But then again, if [calling it systemd] appears too simple to you, call it (but never spell it!) System Five Hundred since D is the roman numeral for 500 (this also clarifies the relation to System V, right?).
- misterS 4y ago
  Instinctively applying Pascal case, maybe?
yrro 4y ago
Fortunately you can use docker-compose with Podman these days. (There have been a few false starts so I'm specifically referring to the vanilla unmodified docker-compose that makes Docker API calls to a UNIX socket which Podman can listen to).

jacooper 4y ago

Its not as easy nor as simple as docker + docker compose.

ilovecaching 4y ago
It’s literally OCI compatible, integrates with systemd and LSM, and runs rootless by default. Podman is 100000% better designed on the inside with the same interface on the outside.
- dontlaugh 4y ago
  It’s the lack of fully compatible compose that matters most.
  - jacooper 4y ago
    Podman appears to support the compose v2 spec, and the socket API, but still not fully supporting buildkit. https://www.redhat.com/sysadmin/podman-compose-docker-compose https://www.redhat.com/sysadmin/podman-compose-docker-compos...
- jacooper 4y ago
  Rootless networking is still a mess with no IP source propagation and much slower performance. So for most users docker with userNS-remapping is actually a better choice. Also systemd integration isn't a plus for me, I don't want to deal with SystemD just to have a container start on startup.
  - yrro 4y ago
    I think --network=pasta: helps with source IP preservation. Regardless that has never bothered me since I'm only using podman or docker for local development...
    - jacooper 4y ago
      Hmmm, pasta seems to solve all rootless networking issues... https://github.com/containers/podman/pull/16141 https://github.com/containers/podman/pull/16141

raesene9 4y ago

This is more about Docker hub than Docker. Image hosting is expensive at scale, and someone's got to pay for the compute/storage/network...

robertlagrant 4y ago
I agree. The core devs should create a new company and focus just on the tools, with a simple, scaling licence model for them. As far as DockerHub goes, the OSS hosting costs do need to be solved, but surely they can be.
- raesene9 4y ago
  I'm not sure it's easy. We're seeing other open source projects like Kubernetes struggle with hosting costs, and that's just one project. Ideally it'd be great to see the industry fund it, but with budget cuts in tech. I'm not sure that'll happen...
  - robertlagrant 4y ago
    I haven't seen that, but I haven't been following along. I'd assumed they would be very Google-funded still. Is it a general CNCF problem?
    - raesene9 4y ago
      So I'm not in the details of this but I understand from k8s slack that there is a fixed GCP budget for image hosting and Kubernetes is getting through it too quickly which is why they're moving the registry domain to a generic one from a GCP specific one, to allow for other funding to be found and used.
phkahler 4y ago
>> Image hosting is expensive at scale, and someone's got to pay for the compute/storage/network.. Bit Torrent would beg to differ.

sofixa 4y ago

How is a tool developed by, and strongly pushed by (to the point of strongarming customers to transition to their tool, features lacking be damned) a corporation, especially one owned by IBM, filling the role of a coop-developed tool?