4 ms·

> We are overpaid Compared to what? Directors of HR, product managers, lawyers, managers of all kinds, etc. all make similar money. Software engineers are pa

> We are overpaid Compared to what? Directors of HR, product managers, lawyers, managers of all kinds, etc. all make similar money. Software engineers are paid what they're paid because their work allows companies to scale their products to serve more users. This "paid too much" is nonsense, we can barely (if at all) afford houses where near where we work.

BiteCode_dev 4y ago
Everybody agree that there are several of overpaid BS jobs out there. Two things can be true.
- epicureanideal 4y ago
  If almost all the skilled jobs are similarly “overpaid”, maybe that’s just what ordinary good pay looks like. Some people might be underpaid, and that would be a different angle. As it is, in the Bay Area, a typical startup software engineer only earns 4-5x what a person that makes burgers at a fast food restaurant makes. (Typically they make $20+ per hour, so $40k+ per year). Despite years of education, monetary investment in education, constant re training, long hours, etc. It doesn’t seem an unreasonable multiple to me, just trying to get a sense of the situation. Those arguing that we should make less than or around $100k, are we really producing no more value than 2 people making burgers, or one especially fast burger maker? Also note that wait staff at good restaurants in SF can earn $80-100k. And even decent outsourced developers in low cost of living countries charge $30-50 per hour (60k-100k per year). With again, less impressive education, and assuming a 40 hour work week which is lower than many engineers in the Bay Area work, and that’s not even for top skilled outsourced work. Try paying less than this now, you’ll pay for it multiple times over later.
- danielrpa 4y ago
  True. But interestingly, few of these people believe that THEIR job is one of the "BS jobs out there"
usrnm 4y ago
> Compared to what? Nurses? Our job is a lot easier and less important and working conditions are much better. And yet, a fresh grad straight out of school gets a few times more money than an experienced nurse. And, what is worse, a lot of devs honestly believe that they deserve it.
- epicureanideal 4y ago
  > Nurses? Ah yes, I remember them. The students that were taking the easy chemistry instead of hard chemistry, the easy physics in 2 classes instead of hard physics in 3 classes, and who mostly seemed to be fairly clueless and just doing nursing because someone told them that health care is a growth field. Reminded me a lot of aimless business majors. Their jobs actually are also on average easier, their education was easier on average, and their ongoing training investment is on average easier, and maybe (although this I don’t know) with more job security. Edit to reply: No, this is not a joke. I remember this impression I had very clearly. I also still roughly remember the courses each major needed to take.
  - m2fkxy 4y ago
    Is this a joke?
    - wing-_-nuts 4y ago
      We don't pay people (much more) based on the physical difficulty of their job. If we did, I'm sure the migrant labor that picks our fruit would be first in line for a raise. My RN friend graduated and got her RN a full 3 years before I graduated with my CS degree. Nursing might be a more demanding job, but it has a much lower barrier to entry than CS, and thus it has a much larger supply (despite nursing orgs complaining about shortages), and a fairly fixed demand that's only increasing as the population ages.
      - usrnm 4y ago
        Most programming jobs neither require nor actually need a CS degree. I don't have one and I'm doing pretty ok. Gluing frameworks together is not exactly difficult and has nothing to do with lambda calculus or compiler internals

BiteCode_dev 4y ago

Everybody agree that there are several of overpaid BS jobs out there. Two things can be true.

epicureanideal 4y ago
If almost all the skilled jobs are similarly “overpaid”, maybe that’s just what ordinary good pay looks like. Some people might be underpaid, and that would be a different angle. As it is, in the Bay Area, a typical startup software engineer only earns 4-5x what a person that makes burgers at a fast food restaurant makes. (Typically they make $20+ per hour, so $40k+ per year). Despite years of education, monetary investment in education, constant re training, long hours, etc. It doesn’t seem an unreasonable multiple to me, just trying to get a sense of the situation. Those arguing that we should make less than or around $100k, are we really producing no more value than 2 people making burgers, or one especially fast burger maker? Also note that wait staff at good restaurants in SF can earn $80-100k. And even decent outsourced developers in low cost of living countries charge $30-50 per hour (60k-100k per year). With again, less impressive education, and assuming a 40 hour work week which is lower than many engineers in the Bay Area work, and that’s not even for top skilled outsourced work. Try paying less than this now, you’ll pay for it multiple times over later.
danielrpa 4y ago
True. But interestingly, few of these people believe that THEIR job is one of the "BS jobs out there"

usrnm 4y ago

> Compared to what? Nurses? Our job is a lot easier and less important and working conditions are much better. And yet, a fresh grad straight out of school gets a few times more money than an experienced nurse. And, what is worse, a lot of devs honestly believe that they deserve it.

epicureanideal 4y ago
> Nurses? Ah yes, I remember them. The students that were taking the easy chemistry instead of hard chemistry, the easy physics in 2 classes instead of hard physics in 3 classes, and who mostly seemed to be fairly clueless and just doing nursing because someone told them that health care is a growth field. Reminded me a lot of aimless business majors. Their jobs actually are also on average easier, their education was easier on average, and their ongoing training investment is on average easier, and maybe (although this I don’t know) with more job security. Edit to reply: No, this is not a joke. I remember this impression I had very clearly. I also still roughly remember the courses each major needed to take.
- m2fkxy 4y ago
  Is this a joke?
  - wing-_-nuts 4y ago
    We don't pay people (much more) based on the physical difficulty of their job. If we did, I'm sure the migrant labor that picks our fruit would be first in line for a raise. My RN friend graduated and got her RN a full 3 years before I graduated with my CS degree. Nursing might be a more demanding job, but it has a much lower barrier to entry than CS, and thus it has a much larger supply (despite nursing orgs complaining about shortages), and a fairly fixed demand that's only increasing as the population ages.
    - usrnm 4y ago
      Most programming jobs neither require nor actually need a CS degree. I don't have one and I'm doing pretty ok. Gluing frameworks together is not exactly difficult and has nothing to do with lambda calculus or compiler internals