5 ms·

If your app is complex enough to need something like this, you probably should make it native anyway (the browser interface is going to get in the way). Don't t

If your app is complex enough to need something like this, you probably should make it native anyway (the browser interface is going to get in the way). Don't try to turn the browser into an OS ! (I probably shouldn't give any support to Windows by even mentioning it, but doesn't it have built-in sandboxing and especially permissions too these days ? What else the "run as an admin" command is about ??)

afavour 4y ago
> If your app is complex enough to need something like this, you probably should make it native anyway Are we really still making this argument in an era where Figma and Google Docs exist?
- norman784 4y ago
  Don't they save the files on the cloud? I think this is about having access to local file system.
  - afavour 4y ago
    My point isn’t about local file system access. OP said that if you’re making a complex app it should be native. I was pointing out that millions of people use complex webapps every day, adding file system access is a logical attempt to meet an audience where it is.
    - BlueTemplar 4y ago
      I'm not blaming Mozilla here (at least I don't think I should..? Not sure that the «enabler of bad behaviour» argument can really apply here ??)
  - Steltek 4y ago
    I wish it wasn't a local filesystem. Google Docs was superior (for me) in that my files were available on every device. To achieve that here would require setting up Dropbox or similar and dealing with edge cases. If this API was more sophisticated with conflict resolution, Firefox could sync these files for me (maybe S3 compatible? I dunno) and then every app could have magical Dropbox/GDrive capabilities instead of a boring old tech folder that gets wiped out every so often.
- scarface74 4y ago
  Yes and Google Docs is not nearly as good as Office or even Apple’s iWork suite.
- illiarian 4y ago
  The existence of two apps that spent countless man-years implementing their apps to run in the browser doesn't make them a good example. Same goes for VS Code which inevitably comes up in these discussions. Figma literally said they had to build a browser inside the browser: https://www.figma.com/blog/building-a-professional-design-tool-on-the-web/ https://www.figma.com/blog/building-a-professional-design-to...
  - afavour 4y ago
    You’re looking at it from an engineering perspective, I’m looking at it from the user perspective. I’m not saying the web is the technically best platform to implement a native app, I’m saying that users want to use these complex apps on the web. Making a native app that has to be installed is limiting your audience.
    - Jcowell 4y ago
      > I’m not saying the web is the technically best platform to implement a native app, I’m saying that users want to use these complex apps on the web. Making a native app that has to be installed is limiting your audience. As someone who has used Figma since it’s inception I’ve always hated the web interface. I like software being it’s own application with its own suite of tools and shortcuts that are only beholden to the OS, not the OS + Browser.
    - illiarian 4y ago
      No. What users want is using complex apps that are smooth, fast, support native behaviors (anything from screen readers to system shortcuts) etc. They couldn't care less about the tech behind those apps. Thinking that users "want to use complex apps on the web" is literally what engineers are thinking. And especially in the actual context of the thread my original point still stands.
      - afavour 4y ago
        We can argue until the end of time about what we think users want and it’ll never get anywhere. I’d argue “users crave native experiences” is the engineer thinking. I have friends, family and hundreds of coworkers using Google Docs. No one cares.
- BlueTemplar 4y ago
  Are you really using Google Docs as an example of the best that can be done ? (Assuming it's even a morally acceptable example, we are on Hacker News, aren't we ?) (Also, this isn't so much about the best that can be done, but about what your median developer is able to do and/or median user is going to have to deal with.)
  - afavour 4y ago
    At no point did I say Google Docs is the best that can be done. But the efficiency with which it matched Office and blew OpenOffice out of the water ought to be of note. People weren’t just okay with office software in their browser, they flocked to it. I don’t really see what Hacker News has to do with it. Are we supposed to deny the popularity of things because we don’t think they’re technically impressive enough?
- rwalle 4y ago
  Ignore those comments. There is a very large group of people on hacker news who do not understand and will never understand how real world products work. In their mind, native is better than a web app and that's the only way things should work.
- robertoandred 4y ago
  Are we still pretending that Figma and Google Docs are good examples of applications? I want the native application features that my OS provides, not the half-baked, lowest-common-denominator kludges found in web/Electron apps.
  - Shish2k 4y ago
    If you can give me some native APIs which solve distribution and sandboxing, across the three major desktop OSes and two major mobile OSes, as easily as the web, then I would be more than happy to go back to native dev :D
    - mrguyorama 4y ago
      "Waaah waah I get paid six figures to npm install and don't want to actually do any work but still want to be called an engineer" Seriously it's pathetic. Stop making my computing environment worse just because you are too lazy to learn some desktop APIs
      - afavour 4y ago
        Come on, this is an absurd response. I'm sure most of us here would love to while away untold hours learning desktop APIs for Windows and Mac, then picking up mobile APIs for iOS and Android. But in the real world we have jobs that have deadlines that do not facilitate rewriting and redistributing at least four different versions of a product. When it comes to delivering a write once deploy anywhere solution the web has no peer. I'm not particularly happy about that but it's the way the world works. Calling people who work on the web "lazy" is a ridiculous response. Maybe you should get to work on the one size fits all native framework that will rival the web?
    - robertoandred 4y ago
      I mean, Mac/iOS App Store apps are already sandboxed and easily distributable. Windows, Android, and Linux all have stores/package managers and I assume/hope some level of sandboxing.
kitsunesoba 4y ago
> the browser interface is going to get in the way Glad I’m not the only one who get irritated with browser chrome and other “browserisms” like having to include a bespoke menu system that web apps uses instead of the macOS global menubar because browser menus already occupy it. Google Docs for instance would be a lot more nice and clean without the clutter of the browser toolbar and redundant menu system eating up all that vertical space. It’s simple enough to hack together a WebKit/Electron wrapper to get you the first half, but you’re stuck with the redundant menubar no matter what. Actually now that I’m thinking about it, it seems like a massive oversight that the PWA spec doesn’t seem to have anything for desktop menus.

afavour 4y ago

> If your app is complex enough to need something like this, you probably should make it native anyway Are we really still making this argument in an era where Figma and Google Docs exist?

norman784 4y ago
Don't they save the files on the cloud? I think this is about having access to local file system.
- afavour 4y ago
  My point isn’t about local file system access. OP said that if you’re making a complex app it should be native. I was pointing out that millions of people use complex webapps every day, adding file system access is a logical attempt to meet an audience where it is.
  - BlueTemplar 4y ago
    I'm not blaming Mozilla here (at least I don't think I should..? Not sure that the «enabler of bad behaviour» argument can really apply here ??)
- Steltek 4y ago
  I wish it wasn't a local filesystem. Google Docs was superior (for me) in that my files were available on every device. To achieve that here would require setting up Dropbox or similar and dealing with edge cases. If this API was more sophisticated with conflict resolution, Firefox could sync these files for me (maybe S3 compatible? I dunno) and then every app could have magical Dropbox/GDrive capabilities instead of a boring old tech folder that gets wiped out every so often.
scarface74 4y ago
Yes and Google Docs is not nearly as good as Office or even Apple’s iWork suite.
illiarian 4y ago
The existence of two apps that spent countless man-years implementing their apps to run in the browser doesn't make them a good example. Same goes for VS Code which inevitably comes up in these discussions. Figma literally said they had to build a browser inside the browser: https://www.figma.com/blog/building-a-professional-design-tool-on-the-web/ https://www.figma.com/blog/building-a-professional-design-to...
- afavour 4y ago
  You’re looking at it from an engineering perspective, I’m looking at it from the user perspective. I’m not saying the web is the technically best platform to implement a native app, I’m saying that users want to use these complex apps on the web. Making a native app that has to be installed is limiting your audience.
  - Jcowell 4y ago
    > I’m not saying the web is the technically best platform to implement a native app, I’m saying that users want to use these complex apps on the web. Making a native app that has to be installed is limiting your audience. As someone who has used Figma since it’s inception I’ve always hated the web interface. I like software being it’s own application with its own suite of tools and shortcuts that are only beholden to the OS, not the OS + Browser.
  - illiarian 4y ago
    No. What users want is using complex apps that are smooth, fast, support native behaviors (anything from screen readers to system shortcuts) etc. They couldn't care less about the tech behind those apps. Thinking that users "want to use complex apps on the web" is literally what engineers are thinking. And especially in the actual context of the thread my original point still stands.
    - afavour 4y ago
      We can argue until the end of time about what we think users want and it’ll never get anywhere. I’d argue “users crave native experiences” is the engineer thinking. I have friends, family and hundreds of coworkers using Google Docs. No one cares.
BlueTemplar 4y ago
Are you really using Google Docs as an example of the best that can be done ? (Assuming it's even a morally acceptable example, we are on Hacker News, aren't we ?) (Also, this isn't so much about the best that can be done, but about what your median developer is able to do and/or median user is going to have to deal with.)
- afavour 4y ago
  At no point did I say Google Docs is the best that can be done. But the efficiency with which it matched Office and blew OpenOffice out of the water ought to be of note. People weren’t just okay with office software in their browser, they flocked to it. I don’t really see what Hacker News has to do with it. Are we supposed to deny the popularity of things because we don’t think they’re technically impressive enough?
rwalle 4y ago
Ignore those comments. There is a very large group of people on hacker news who do not understand and will never understand how real world products work. In their mind, native is better than a web app and that's the only way things should work.
robertoandred 4y ago
Are we still pretending that Figma and Google Docs are good examples of applications? I want the native application features that my OS provides, not the half-baked, lowest-common-denominator kludges found in web/Electron apps.
- Shish2k 4y ago
  If you can give me some native APIs which solve distribution and sandboxing, across the three major desktop OSes and two major mobile OSes, as easily as the web, then I would be more than happy to go back to native dev :D
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    "Waaah waah I get paid six figures to npm install and don't want to actually do any work but still want to be called an engineer" Seriously it's pathetic. Stop making my computing environment worse just because you are too lazy to learn some desktop APIs
    - afavour 4y ago
      Come on, this is an absurd response. I'm sure most of us here would love to while away untold hours learning desktop APIs for Windows and Mac, then picking up mobile APIs for iOS and Android. But in the real world we have jobs that have deadlines that do not facilitate rewriting and redistributing at least four different versions of a product. When it comes to delivering a write once deploy anywhere solution the web has no peer. I'm not particularly happy about that but it's the way the world works. Calling people who work on the web "lazy" is a ridiculous response. Maybe you should get to work on the one size fits all native framework that will rival the web?
  - robertoandred 4y ago
    I mean, Mac/iOS App Store apps are already sandboxed and easily distributable. Windows, Android, and Linux all have stores/package managers and I assume/hope some level of sandboxing.

kitsunesoba 4y ago

> the browser interface is going to get in the way Glad I’m not the only one who get irritated with browser chrome and other “browserisms” like having to include a bespoke menu system that web apps uses instead of the macOS global menubar because browser menus already occupy it. Google Docs for instance would be a lot more nice and clean without the clutter of the browser toolbar and redundant menu system eating up all that vertical space. It’s simple enough to hack together a WebKit/Electron wrapper to get you the first half, but you’re stuck with the redundant menubar no matter what. Actually now that I’m thinking about it, it seems like a massive oversight that the PWA spec doesn’t seem to have anything for desktop menus.