8 ms·

> Nobody is going to "generate training data" if they get precisely nothing out of it. How much did you get paid to write this comment?

by imgabe 4y ago

nicbou 4y ago
People are happy to share their opinion, but don't expect people to write long, well-researched content about anything. In my case, the content I write involves hours of research, and correspondence with a network of experts I have built up over 5 years. I constantly update and revise that content. The website on which it's hosted was also developed with great attention over the same period. I don't think that I'd keep doing if I was deprived of revenue, and from the kind feedback of readers. I certainly couldn't do it full time.
- imgabe 4y ago
  If GPT could do the same research - reading a bunch of primary sources and condensing and summarizing the information - why wouldn't we want to have GPT do that rather than having a human do it? We don't employ roomfuls of people to solve math equations by hand to calculate trajectories anymore, because the computer can do that faster. If GPT can't do research and produce content with the same level of accuracy as you (which, so far, it can't) than surely people would be happy to continue compensating you to do so.
  - nicbou 4y ago
    Sometimes I am the primary source. I got the information from calling various government offices and interviewing people. I write with a certain amount of specific context that a LLM does not have. To illustrate my point, an LLM might summarise legal texts, but only a lawyer can tell you the odds. I tried ChatGPT. I asked it questions about the work I do, and it was about as correct as the cheapest copywriter. The writing was very good (if verbose), but the information was shallow but credible bullshit. There is no efficient market that allocates money to the best products. In reality, the winner takes it all. Therein lies the problem. If people find credible bullshit before valid information, they might stop there. It deprives them of valid information, and me of revenue. There is plenty of credible bullshit already. GPT just makes it cheaper to produce.
    - Radim 4y ago
      This is a self-correcting problem. If people consume "credible bullshit" and can't tell the difference, without consequences, then your thoughtful work isn't as valuable as you thought. If on the other hand people consume BS and it comes to bite them in the ass (through reduced socioeconomic status and, ultimately, reduced reproductive success), then competing approaches become viable. We may not be around to experience it – a variation of "the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent" – but you may find comfort in the fact that Nature has a way of optimizing away cruft. Most often through repurposing the obsolete-but-already-existing system for another function, and failing that, through atrophy and death.
      - nicbou 4y ago
        > then your thoughtful work isn't as valuable as you thought. Why is this type of dismissal so prevalent on HN? Do you really believe that? In the real world, core infrastructure depends on code that does not raise enough money to buy groceries. Do you remember OpenSSL and Heartbleed? The entire internet paraphrases the same few nuggets of original research, with affiliate links slapped on top. The market has been irrational for as long as I have been alive, and it's getting more irrational every year. When will the invisible hand of the free market correct things? Why do you insist that we live in a libertarian utopia where this statement holds any semblance of truth?
        account42 4y ago
        Sounds a lot like the current setup is already pretty fucked when it comes to rewarding creators. So why limit people who are driven to create by restricting what they can and cannot use? And just to be clear, people do write long, well-researched content for free all the time. I'm all for holding Microsoft et al. to the same copyright laws they expect others to follow when it comes to their own works, but ultimately it would be in societies interest to not limit creators. Sure, maybe there are areas where we need to find ways to encourage creators but let's not do that by limiting everyone else.
        Radim 4y ago
- precompute 4y ago
  +1. There is no more incentive to post things on the internet if this is how things are going to be. If all the effort you put into something can be used to bolster a LLM that will then be used to make money off that info, no one would want to write. If I have a blog, I'd write for humans and not so some "Open" "AI" company or Micro$hit can come and claim my work as their own. People will sooner credit LLMs for being "smart" than acknowledge the upcoming massive Original Content vaccuum.
taneq 4y ago
Their compensation was a feeling of contributing and being part of a community, probably with some degree of self-validation as they read and agreed with their own opinion after posting it. Later they might even get paid with some upvotes granting additional affirmation. Just like us, really.
- imgabe 4y ago
  Just make sure you compensate them if any of their content is used to train your wetware neural network and becomes part of any future text it generates.
montag 4y ago
Haha, great rebuttal. The reward was mere internet points and the hardwired gratification that comes from social interaction. People sometimes go to great lengths for non-monetary rewards.

> Nobody is going to "generate training data" if they get precisely nothing out of it. How much did you get paid to write this comment?

by imgabe 4y ago

> Nobody is going to "generate training data" if they get precisely nothing out of it. How much did you get paid to write this comment?

nicbou 4y ago

People are happy to share their opinion, but don't expect people to write long, well-researched content about anything. In my case, the content I write involves hours of research, and correspondence with a network of experts I have built up over 5 years. I constantly update and revise that content. The website on which it's hosted was also developed with great attention over the same period. I don't think that I'd keep doing if I was deprived of revenue, and from the kind feedback of readers. I certainly couldn't do it full time.

imgabe 4y ago
If GPT could do the same research - reading a bunch of primary sources and condensing and summarizing the information - why wouldn't we want to have GPT do that rather than having a human do it? We don't employ roomfuls of people to solve math equations by hand to calculate trajectories anymore, because the computer can do that faster. If GPT can't do research and produce content with the same level of accuracy as you (which, so far, it can't) than surely people would be happy to continue compensating you to do so.
- nicbou 4y ago
  Sometimes I am the primary source. I got the information from calling various government offices and interviewing people. I write with a certain amount of specific context that a LLM does not have. To illustrate my point, an LLM might summarise legal texts, but only a lawyer can tell you the odds. I tried ChatGPT. I asked it questions about the work I do, and it was about as correct as the cheapest copywriter. The writing was very good (if verbose), but the information was shallow but credible bullshit. There is no efficient market that allocates money to the best products. In reality, the winner takes it all. Therein lies the problem. If people find credible bullshit before valid information, they might stop there. It deprives them of valid information, and me of revenue. There is plenty of credible bullshit already. GPT just makes it cheaper to produce.
  - Radim 4y ago
    This is a self-correcting problem. If people consume "credible bullshit" and can't tell the difference, without consequences, then your thoughtful work isn't as valuable as you thought. If on the other hand people consume BS and it comes to bite them in the ass (through reduced socioeconomic status and, ultimately, reduced reproductive success), then competing approaches become viable. We may not be around to experience it – a variation of "the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent" – but you may find comfort in the fact that Nature has a way of optimizing away cruft. Most often through repurposing the obsolete-but-already-existing system for another function, and failing that, through atrophy and death.
    - nicbou 4y ago
      > then your thoughtful work isn't as valuable as you thought. Why is this type of dismissal so prevalent on HN? Do you really believe that? In the real world, core infrastructure depends on code that does not raise enough money to buy groceries. Do you remember OpenSSL and Heartbleed? The entire internet paraphrases the same few nuggets of original research, with affiliate links slapped on top. The market has been irrational for as long as I have been alive, and it's getting more irrational every year. When will the invisible hand of the free market correct things? Why do you insist that we live in a libertarian utopia where this statement holds any semblance of truth?
      - account42 4y ago
        Sounds a lot like the current setup is already pretty fucked when it comes to rewarding creators. So why limit people who are driven to create by restricting what they can and cannot use? And just to be clear, people do write long, well-researched content for free all the time. I'm all for holding Microsoft et al. to the same copyright laws they expect others to follow when it comes to their own works, but ultimately it would be in societies interest to not limit creators. Sure, maybe there are areas where we need to find ways to encourage creators but let's not do that by limiting everyone else.
      - Radim 4y ago
precompute 4y ago
+1. There is no more incentive to post things on the internet if this is how things are going to be. If all the effort you put into something can be used to bolster a LLM that will then be used to make money off that info, no one would want to write. If I have a blog, I'd write for humans and not so some "Open" "AI" company or Micro$hit can come and claim my work as their own. People will sooner credit LLMs for being "smart" than acknowledge the upcoming massive Original Content vaccuum.

taneq 4y ago

Their compensation was a feeling of contributing and being part of a community, probably with some degree of self-validation as they read and agreed with their own opinion after posting it. Later they might even get paid with some upvotes granting additional affirmation. Just like us, really.

imgabe 4y ago
Just make sure you compensate them if any of their content is used to train your wetware neural network and becomes part of any future text it generates.

montag 4y ago

Haha, great rebuttal. The reward was mere internet points and the hardwired gratification that comes from social interaction. People sometimes go to great lengths for non-monetary rewards.