7 ms·

This is weird. Freedom shouldn't be the price you pay to operate in any country. Is it passe to push American ideals abroad.

Karunamon 15y ago
No, but when it comes down to "Censor stuff when asked" or "Don't bother setting up shop at all", any rational person would take option #1. So let's see, you're Google, and you want to set up your search engine in China. "Not so fast" says the local big cheeses. "You have to censor search results in compliance with laws X Y and Z. If you do not, your employees will be jailed and you will be shut down." As a Chinese citizen, which is the best result? Let's do a very simple payoff matrix. Outcome A: Google avoids China altogether Outcome B: Google opens in China and complies with the law Outcome C: Google opens in China and does not comply with the law Google Chinese Citizen A 0 0 B 1 1 C -1 0 Only option B leaves all parties better than they started out.
- ppod 15y ago
  I see your point, but it's a little simplistic. By opening and complying with the law you are to a certain extent validating or condoning that law. By agreeing to abide by China's rules Google to some extent takes pressure off the Chinese government.
  - Karunamon 15y ago
    >By agreeing to abide by China's rules Google to some extent takes pressure off the Chinese government. How do you figure that? A search engine company in the united states probably isn't in the best position to be dictating foreign policy. Any "pressure" they could exert (on China, especially) by saying "We're staying away due to your crappy laws" is minimal at best. Besides, they already left due to (ostensibly) government agents trying to hack into their systems.
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- _delirium 15y ago
  But in actuality Google decided B was a mistake, and has switched to A: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/mar/23/google-china-censorship-hong-kong http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/mar/23/google-chin...
  - Volpe 15y ago
    Yes, but it is worse off because of it. Also it was already getting trounced by competition (Baidu). Google in china was like Bing is in the west. The search engine you know, but never use. :P
  - felipe 15y ago
    Actually Google decided A was a mistake, and has switched to C: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-24/google-china-business-grows-continues-to-thrive-alegre-says.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-24/google-china-busine...
- blake8086 15y ago
  Gosh, I would have written Google Freedom A 0 1 B 1 -1 C -1 1
  - Karunamon 15y ago
    How does a new search engine complying with existing laws impact "freedom" (a nebulous concept) in any meaningful way?
    - Volpe 15y ago
      Because US propaganda has got it into peoples heads that "Free-Speech"* = "Freedom"+ Glasshouses, stones, kettles and pots are all coming to mind :P * Where free speech, is "Free" by US law. And not anything that is critical of the US govt institution (ala Bradley Manning) + Where freedom is the same brand of Freedom™ that the US promotes/enjoys(?)
      - Karunamon 15y ago
        > And not anything that is critical of the US govt institution (ala Bradley Manning) Pretty sure free speech does not, has not, and never has or will apply to military secrets that one takes an oath to keep when they join the military. Let's get one thing straight. Manning is a hero in my book.. but there is no question what so ever that he broke the law (and his oath). The debate comes in to what we do with him because of what he did.
        Volpe 15y ago
        Thats my point... you have a special brand of "free speech". That has caveats on the free part. If you don't like the bradley manning example, then just move further up the chain to Wikileaks. The point is still valid. It isn't Free Speech, is just 'mostly' free unless you impinge on a more powerful interest... oh wait, that isn't free.
        15y ago
- mindslight 15y ago
  Option D: Google opens their Chinese office outside of PRC, and embraces circumvention technology. This is the Internet, you don't have to open a physical office in every market. Censoring services for the whims of every government just dilutes your brand.
  - Karunamon 15y ago
    This is a corporation. For one, it's incredibly inefficient to set up infrastructure outside of where you're operating. For two, how hard do you think it would be for the great firewall to just block whatever IP's they operate from? Google.cn being accessible from tor might be a neat idea in theory, but it's infeasible (and just a little bit silly) from a real world perspective where you have to account for your cash and actions.
- libraryatnight 15y ago
  It's not really fair to say "any rational person would take option #1," as a rational person could also make the decision that they'd rather not be party to supporting censorship.
- nextparadigms 15y ago
  It would've helped if Google convinced other companies to join them if they don't lower their censorship requests.
- vibragiel 15y ago
  That is indeed a very simple matrix. Outcome A': Google avoids China altogether, keeping the pressure on Chinese authorities, which may, on the long term, contribute to relax Chinese censorship laws and bolster freedom in that country. Chinese Citizen: 100.
  - Karunamon 15y ago
    I think you greatly overestimate the amount of "pressure" a single company can exert on China, of all places.
    - vibragiel 15y ago
      I can't hardly overestimate something I didn't make an estimation of.
      - Karunamon 15y ago
        Oh FFS. >Outcome A': Google avoids China altogether, keeping the pressure on Chinese authorities, which may, on the long term You did type this, yes?
        vibragiel 15y ago
        Yes. Where is the amount, extent, position, size, or value of the pressure exerted on China, that I estimated too highly?
        Karunamon 15y ago
        The fact that there is any pressure whatsoever. Of all the countries in the world, China is the most able (from an economic and political standpoint) to tell a western company to take their service and shove it.
        vibragiel 15y ago
        That's a very shallow view of how the non-autarkic part of the world (to which China certainly belongs) works, China's recent history and the influence of the "cocacolonization" effect. Stating it exerts no pressure whatsoever is an extraordinary claim.

Karunamon 15y ago

No, but when it comes down to "Censor stuff when asked" or "Don't bother setting up shop at all", any rational person would take option #1. So let's see, you're Google, and you want to set up your search engine in China. "Not so fast" says the local big cheeses. "You have to censor search results in compliance with laws X Y and Z. If you do not, your employees will be jailed and you will be shut down." As a Chinese citizen, which is the best result? Let's do a very simple payoff matrix. Outcome A: Google avoids China altogether Outcome B: Google opens in China and complies with the law Outcome C: Google opens in China and does not comply with the law Google Chinese Citizen A 0 0 B 1 1 C -1 0 Only option B leaves all parties better than they started out.

ppod 15y ago
I see your point, but it's a little simplistic. By opening and complying with the law you are to a certain extent validating or condoning that law. By agreeing to abide by China's rules Google to some extent takes pressure off the Chinese government.
- Karunamon 15y ago
  >By agreeing to abide by China's rules Google to some extent takes pressure off the Chinese government. How do you figure that? A search engine company in the united states probably isn't in the best position to be dictating foreign policy. Any "pressure" they could exert (on China, especially) by saying "We're staying away due to your crappy laws" is minimal at best. Besides, they already left due to (ostensibly) government agents trying to hack into their systems.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
_delirium 15y ago
But in actuality Google decided B was a mistake, and has switched to A: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/mar/23/google-china-censorship-hong-kong http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/mar/23/google-chin...
- Volpe 15y ago
  Yes, but it is worse off because of it. Also it was already getting trounced by competition (Baidu). Google in china was like Bing is in the west. The search engine you know, but never use. :P
- felipe 15y ago
  Actually Google decided A was a mistake, and has switched to C: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-24/google-china-business-grows-continues-to-thrive-alegre-says.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-24/google-china-busine...
blake8086 15y ago
Gosh, I would have written Google Freedom A 0 1 B 1 -1 C -1 1
- Karunamon 15y ago
  How does a new search engine complying with existing laws impact "freedom" (a nebulous concept) in any meaningful way?
  - Volpe 15y ago
    Because US propaganda has got it into peoples heads that "Free-Speech"* = "Freedom"+ Glasshouses, stones, kettles and pots are all coming to mind :P * Where free speech, is "Free" by US law. And not anything that is critical of the US govt institution (ala Bradley Manning) + Where freedom is the same brand of Freedom™ that the US promotes/enjoys(?)
    - Karunamon 15y ago
      > And not anything that is critical of the US govt institution (ala Bradley Manning) Pretty sure free speech does not, has not, and never has or will apply to military secrets that one takes an oath to keep when they join the military. Let's get one thing straight. Manning is a hero in my book.. but there is no question what so ever that he broke the law (and his oath). The debate comes in to what we do with him because of what he did.
      - Volpe 15y ago
        Thats my point... you have a special brand of "free speech". That has caveats on the free part. If you don't like the bradley manning example, then just move further up the chain to Wikileaks. The point is still valid. It isn't Free Speech, is just 'mostly' free unless you impinge on a more powerful interest... oh wait, that isn't free.
        15y ago
mindslight 15y ago
Option D: Google opens their Chinese office outside of PRC, and embraces circumvention technology. This is the Internet, you don't have to open a physical office in every market. Censoring services for the whims of every government just dilutes your brand.
- Karunamon 15y ago
  This is a corporation. For one, it's incredibly inefficient to set up infrastructure outside of where you're operating. For two, how hard do you think it would be for the great firewall to just block whatever IP's they operate from? Google.cn being accessible from tor might be a neat idea in theory, but it's infeasible (and just a little bit silly) from a real world perspective where you have to account for your cash and actions.
libraryatnight 15y ago
It's not really fair to say "any rational person would take option #1," as a rational person could also make the decision that they'd rather not be party to supporting censorship.
nextparadigms 15y ago
It would've helped if Google convinced other companies to join them if they don't lower their censorship requests.
vibragiel 15y ago
That is indeed a very simple matrix. Outcome A': Google avoids China altogether, keeping the pressure on Chinese authorities, which may, on the long term, contribute to relax Chinese censorship laws and bolster freedom in that country. Chinese Citizen: 100.
- Karunamon 15y ago
  I think you greatly overestimate the amount of "pressure" a single company can exert on China, of all places.
  - vibragiel 15y ago
    I can't hardly overestimate something I didn't make an estimation of.
    - Karunamon 15y ago
      Oh FFS. >Outcome A': Google avoids China altogether, keeping the pressure on Chinese authorities, which may, on the long term You did type this, yes?
      - vibragiel 15y ago
        Yes. Where is the amount, extent, position, size, or value of the pressure exerted on China, that I estimated too highly?
        Karunamon 15y ago
        The fact that there is any pressure whatsoever. Of all the countries in the world, China is the most able (from an economic and political standpoint) to tell a western company to take their service and shove it.
        vibragiel 15y ago
        That's a very shallow view of how the non-autarkic part of the world (to which China certainly belongs) works, China's recent history and the influence of the "cocacolonization" effect. Stating it exerts no pressure whatsoever is an extraordinary claim.