5 ms·

"Everyone gets the same amount of equity as the CEO" would be a morale booster. "Everyone gets paid the same as the CEO" is at best a nice-to-have.

addisonl 4y ago
For 99.9% of the population, being paid the same as the CEO is a moral booster.
- ivraatiems 4y ago
  That's because 99.9% of the population work for a CEO making millions of dollars a year, not $191k at a startup.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    95% of the population makes less than $191k, though.
  - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
    $191k is a HUGE wage for A LOT of people. If you're scoffing at that you need to realize you're living in a bubble. Outside of Silicon Valley that's even a huge wage for a dev.
    - bb88 4y ago
      ... But not in the bay area. It would make you comfortable, but not rich.
      - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
        Yeah, but they are talking about 99+% of the population here, so I assume that's not just the bay area, or we're really in a bubble.
      - mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
        Surely I'm not the only one who would settle for comfortable? I have no interest in being rich, personally. Not trying to pass judgement on anyone, just genuinely curious how common it is in SV to be unhappy with an income that would make you comfortable, but not rich.
      - TheHappyOddish 4y ago
        The article specifically says it would put you in the top 5% of earners in the US. How many people who live in this area are in said top 5%?
  - mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
    Jeez, how much freaking money are programmers paid in SV that they'd be unhappy earning $191k? I live in probably the most expensive country on Earth, Norway, and at that wage I could work for 10-15 years, and with some smart, fairly conservative investing, assuming good times in the markets I could easily get retired at 40-45 if I wanted to. Granted I live and generally prefer a very frugal lifestyle even when I am making good money, but still by my back of the mental napkin estimation I could even have 2 kids, a spouse, house and car and still have a ton of disposable income left over to save/invest. Is there something I'm missing? Is rent in the valley $80k a year or some bizarro world number?
    - eddsh1994 4y ago
      I pay $3k per month for a 1 bed flat which comes out as 20% of my household income - I don’t feel poor out here with a postdoc wife and my own salary that’s not FANG. Life in a nice part of Palo Alto. The HN bubble is a bubble, I wouldn’t worry about it.
      - mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
        What's the square footage on that flat, if you don't mind, and is it detached? Just trying to get an idea of the market. Still ~half my bizarro world number though, hot damn.
        eddsh1994 4y ago
        750 if I remember right! It’s in what I can only describe as a holiday resort looking apartment block, with a dog park, swimming pool, and fire pit area.
        mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
        That actually sounds really nice at that price point. 750 is a pretty damn big one bed(room?) apartment for sure, and with the perks, prime location and presumably high end building standards, the price seems very reasonable. Probably similar to what I'd have to fork out for a much more central apartment in Oslo, at a similar size and standard.
  - eddsh1994 4y ago
    I’m in the Bay Area and make slightly less than $191k. Me and my wife are very happy financially :) This is a good idea and if you want money then you have to make the company more profitable which is awesome!
epolanski 4y ago
I think the letter addresses this perfectly: equity depends on risk you take, the earlier you joined the more you get seems very reasonable.
- ivraatiems 4y ago
  Except that undermines some of the core points of the letter. They talk about transparency, but are still being quite opaque. They talk about teamwork, but as employee 50, how am I supposed to feel like I'm on the same team as employee 10, when he stands to make several times more than I do if we succeed?
  - wmf 4y ago
    Isn't this the case in every startup?
    - sidlls 4y ago
      Yes, but it's rare that employee 10 contributes to the success of a company that has a huge liquidity event at the same multiple as his or her equity multiple as compared with employee 50.
    - jedberg 4y ago
      No. Key late hires will often get more equity than long time junior employees.
  - epolanski 4y ago
    As employee 10 why would I have to take more risks, put hard work if I m going to make as employee 1000 who did little? Anyway, the beauty of such transparency is that you can decide whether it is fair for you or not.
  - malborodog 4y ago
    Presumably then you'd have the opportunity to swap some of that comp for equity (buy shares). That would be my way of balancing it, anyway.
rtpg 4y ago
Everyone’s different but money pays rent in ways equity doesn’t, so especially for more junior people the money is a massive benefit. In practice I think that motivated people are fine with non-wild salaries, but with early stage stuff it’s way too common to see people try to use equity as a replacement for salary. Your employees stressing out over money will cause them to perform less well.
- ivraatiems 4y ago
  Don't get me wrong - I said this in my own comment on this post - I'm glad they're transparent and that they're paying people a living wage given the risks of a startup. I just think they're overselling what this achieves.

addisonl 4y ago

For 99.9% of the population, being paid the same as the CEO is a moral booster.

ivraatiems 4y ago
That's because 99.9% of the population work for a CEO making millions of dollars a year, not $191k at a startup.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  95% of the population makes less than $191k, though.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  $191k is a HUGE wage for A LOT of people. If you're scoffing at that you need to realize you're living in a bubble. Outside of Silicon Valley that's even a huge wage for a dev.
  - bb88 4y ago
    ... But not in the bay area. It would make you comfortable, but not rich.
    - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
      Yeah, but they are talking about 99+% of the population here, so I assume that's not just the bay area, or we're really in a bubble.
    - mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
      Surely I'm not the only one who would settle for comfortable? I have no interest in being rich, personally. Not trying to pass judgement on anyone, just genuinely curious how common it is in SV to be unhappy with an income that would make you comfortable, but not rich.
    - TheHappyOddish 4y ago
      The article specifically says it would put you in the top 5% of earners in the US. How many people who live in this area are in said top 5%?
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
  Jeez, how much freaking money are programmers paid in SV that they'd be unhappy earning $191k? I live in probably the most expensive country on Earth, Norway, and at that wage I could work for 10-15 years, and with some smart, fairly conservative investing, assuming good times in the markets I could easily get retired at 40-45 if I wanted to. Granted I live and generally prefer a very frugal lifestyle even when I am making good money, but still by my back of the mental napkin estimation I could even have 2 kids, a spouse, house and car and still have a ton of disposable income left over to save/invest. Is there something I'm missing? Is rent in the valley $80k a year or some bizarro world number?
  - eddsh1994 4y ago
    I pay $3k per month for a 1 bed flat which comes out as 20% of my household income - I don’t feel poor out here with a postdoc wife and my own salary that’s not FANG. Life in a nice part of Palo Alto. The HN bubble is a bubble, I wouldn’t worry about it.
    - mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
      What's the square footage on that flat, if you don't mind, and is it detached? Just trying to get an idea of the market. Still ~half my bizarro world number though, hot damn.
      - eddsh1994 4y ago
        750 if I remember right! It’s in what I can only describe as a holiday resort looking apartment block, with a dog park, swimming pool, and fire pit area.
        mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
        That actually sounds really nice at that price point. 750 is a pretty damn big one bed(room?) apartment for sure, and with the perks, prime location and presumably high end building standards, the price seems very reasonable. Probably similar to what I'd have to fork out for a much more central apartment in Oslo, at a similar size and standard.
- eddsh1994 4y ago
  I’m in the Bay Area and make slightly less than $191k. Me and my wife are very happy financially :) This is a good idea and if you want money then you have to make the company more profitable which is awesome!

epolanski 4y ago

I think the letter addresses this perfectly: equity depends on risk you take, the earlier you joined the more you get seems very reasonable.

ivraatiems 4y ago
Except that undermines some of the core points of the letter. They talk about transparency, but are still being quite opaque. They talk about teamwork, but as employee 50, how am I supposed to feel like I'm on the same team as employee 10, when he stands to make several times more than I do if we succeed?
- wmf 4y ago
  Isn't this the case in every startup?
  - sidlls 4y ago
    Yes, but it's rare that employee 10 contributes to the success of a company that has a huge liquidity event at the same multiple as his or her equity multiple as compared with employee 50.
  - jedberg 4y ago
    No. Key late hires will often get more equity than long time junior employees.
- epolanski 4y ago
  As employee 10 why would I have to take more risks, put hard work if I m going to make as employee 1000 who did little? Anyway, the beauty of such transparency is that you can decide whether it is fair for you or not.
- malborodog 4y ago
  Presumably then you'd have the opportunity to swap some of that comp for equity (buy shares). That would be my way of balancing it, anyway.

rtpg 4y ago

Everyone’s different but money pays rent in ways equity doesn’t, so especially for more junior people the money is a massive benefit. In practice I think that motivated people are fine with non-wild salaries, but with early stage stuff it’s way too common to see people try to use equity as a replacement for salary. Your employees stressing out over money will cause them to perform less well.

ivraatiems 4y ago
Don't get me wrong - I said this in my own comment on this post - I'm glad they're transparent and that they're paying people a living wage given the risks of a startup. I just think they're overselling what this achieves.