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We live in truly crazy times: https://companiesmarketcap.com/apple/earnings/ https://companiesmarketcap.com/apple/earnings/ (the company that made $500bn in PRO

by oblio 4y ago

We live in truly crazy times: https://companiesmarketcap.com/apple/earnings/ https://companiesmarketcap.com/apple/earnings/ (the company that made $500bn in PROFITS over the past 5 years is delaying bonuses to employees, sheesh!) Also, I swear, if 10 years from now Apple goes through rough times, they'll ask for a government bailout. Morality only works when you're small and weak.

andsoitis 4y ago
Apple employees are very well compensated and get to do some really meaningful and impactful work (i.e. it is rewarding beyond just $$). If people thought the deal they have is unfair and they can get a better deal elsewhere, they'd leave in droves, but that's not the case. Some would even argue that Apple (and other big tech companies are OVERpaying...) It is also worth noting that bonuses are customarily paid when the business is doing better than projected, but Apple's revenues were down 5% in 2022.
- brianwawok 4y ago
  Depends on the role and company. Many companies bake a bonus target into your total compensation number you negotiate when you take the job.
- npc1701d 4y ago
  "I'm altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."
- throw93 4y ago
  > Apple employees..get to do some really meaningful and impactful work. Meaningful and impactful in what way? They make phones, that’s it. They are not solving some big world issues. World won’t end if we don’t get phones with bigger screens and better cameras every year. > Some would even argue that Apple (and other big tech companies are OVERpaying...) No. None of the tech companies are overpaying, they are in fact underpaying. Employees get a tiny fraction of the profit they generate. They are not even paying the taxes they’re supposed to. > It is also worth noting that bonuses are customarily paid when the business is doing better than projected, but Apple's revenues were down 5% in 2022. Apple made $117.2 billion in profits in 2022. Surely they can pay their employees bonuses and better wages in general if they want to.
  - birdyrooster 4y ago
    Logic Pro and Final Cut Pro are used to make an enormous of excellent art and are really expressive tools.
    - guluarte 4y ago
      and so the cameras used
    - coldtea 4y ago
      So are Cubase, Pro Tools, Live, Premiere, DaVinci, and tons of others, so?
      - birdyrooster 4y ago
        I wasn't responding to how do they compete, the claim was "Meaningful and impactful in what way?" The bar to answer the question was low and I met it.
        coldtea 4y ago
        I don't think "more of the same" meets the bar for "meaningful and impactful".
        birdyrooster 4y ago
        Those products are significantly different than each other and have their own pros and cons. It's a straw man to say that they are simply "more of the same".
  - cornstalks 4y ago
    > They make phones, that’s it. Oh come on, you’re not even trying to have a fruitful discussion. You don’t have to love Apple, but at least put a sliver of effort into the discussion.
    - 4y ago
- autoexec 4y ago
  > If people thought the deal they have is unfair and they can get a better deal elsewhere, they'd leave in droves, This is a race to the bottom. "It's okay if Apple makes things worse for their employees as long as they are still not as bad as X". I'm sure there are people who considered their bonuses when deciding to work for Apple in the first place, and I think it's telling that Apple has decided to do this at a time when companies are laying off workers and the labor market makes "leaving in droves" unlikely. > Apple's revenues were down 5% in 2022. Frankly, it wouldn't matter since Apple is still be making obscene profits and more than enough to treat their employees far better than they were before this change, but however bad the end of 2022 was for apple they were doing better than ever just before that. > Cupertino, California October 27, 2022 Apple today announced financial results for its fiscal 2022 fourth quarter ended September 24, 2022. The Company posted a September quarter record revenue of $90.1 billion, up 8 percent year over year, and quarterly earnings per diluted share of $1.29, up 4 percent year over year. Annual revenue was $394.3 billion, up 8 percent year over year, and annual earnings per diluted share were $6.11, up 9 percent year over year. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2022/10/apple-reports-fourth-quarter-results/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2022/10/apple-reports-fourth-...
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  Anecdata, sure, but Apple employees seem to be relatively not as well compensated as those in other FAANG companies, at least in terms of pure salary.
  - andsoitis 4y ago
    People join and stay at companies for more than just money.
    - nervlord 4y ago
      [dead]
    - Apocryphon 4y ago
      Sure, they also stay for the equity- AAPL is nothing to sneeze at. But my point (and my datapoint, as well as a few others' in terms of anecdata) is that the claim of "are very well compensated" is questionable, at least the last time I checked. And as far as "really meaningful and impactful work" - well, Apple is a very large organization, with all that entails.
    - oblio 4y ago
      And companies really like those suckers.
- coldtea 4y ago
  >Apple employees are very well compensated We're not comparing Apple engineers to some guy flipping burgers, but to engineers at other comparable companies. So "$X should be enough" is not the metric. There's no cutoff for "well compensated". It depends on how much profit the company makes and how much you bring in. Apple is notorious for not compensating its people well, given that it doesn't have the most generous of salaries compared to other FAANGs and has more strict working conditions - while having the biggest profit margins. >If people thought the deal they have is unfair and they can get a better deal elsewhere, they'd leave in droves, but that's not the case. Many top devs have left Apple over the years exactly for such reasons. And people factor in other stuff too, for many years for many employees Apple was more based on instilling a cult-like, reality-distortion-based hold to be "glad to be working at Apple" than actual conpensation. You know, of the "Apple employees get to do some really meaningful and impactful work" variety... >Apple's revenues were down 5% in 2022. Why, does Apple share its profits with employees the years that they're up 5%?
  - TechBro8615 4y ago
    And let's not forget the wage fixing scandal where Apple and Google colluded for years to artificially suppress engineer salaries through illegal anti-poaching agreements.
  - andsoitis 4y ago
    > It depends on how much profit the company makes and how much you bring in. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how (labor) markets work. A company doesn't exist in order to funnel all its profit to its workers. Labor is a market just like other inputs, in the sense that there is supply and demand, so compensation is a function of that, not how much profit a company makes. > You know, of the "Apple employees get to do some really meaningful and impactful work" variety... To imply to someone who chooses to be at Apple over a place like Amazon or Meta (or non-tech company) that they are delusional and that their work is meaningless and has zero impact in this world is truly and utterly insulting.
    - coldtea 4y ago
      >This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how (labor) markets work No, it usually is a disagreement on how they should work (usually with the conventional way presented as some inviolatable physical law). But that's irrelevant, as I wasn't aiming to critique labor markers and capitalism in the comment, or say that a "company exists in order to funnel all its profit to its workers". That whatever they pay will be shaped by supply and demand and acceptable to people in the job market looking for a job is a given, a tautology actually. Still, how well a company pays depends on how much of its profit it gives away. That whatever it does end paying will be ammenable to "supply and demand" doesn't mean there aren't companies paying well above market value for the same roles as others who pay less - even if the former don't need to do that to get employees.
- ip26 4y ago
  worth noting that bonuses are customarily paid when the business is doing better than projected I've been chewing on this part. It's odd for a large profitable company to tighten the belt over a small miss that still left them large and profitable; they are not in trouble and their people aren't responsible for the macro. On the other hand, it's also no good to handsomely reward people when the business is not performing as it should; it misaligns key incentives. Perhaps a good balance would be to retroactively adjust business targets for the purposes of the bonus; "One year ago, $X revenue looked feasible. Knowing what we know now, $Y would have been more in line with this year's market". Then you still measure collective success, but don't punish people for missing what turned out to be an impossible target.
- throwaway2037 4y ago
  Are you working for Apple? If yes, you should disclose. This term "impactful work" makes me and many people here cringe. Can you provide some specific examples? Second, you spoke about revenues. What matters is profits. Walmart has insanely large revenues, but modest profits, due to very tight margins. And, about Apple's profits in 2021 and 2022, I googled: "apple profits 2021 and 2022". Top hit says: "Apple annual gross profit for 2022 was $170.782B, a 11.74% increase from 2021." Ref: https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AAPL/apple/gross-profit https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AAPL/apple/gross-p...
  - andsoitis 4y ago
    > What matters is profits. Worth noting is that Apple missed investor expectations around profit for 2022, and more importantly, diluted EPS. However, what really matters is the future outlook (expected profit, macro economic forecasts, etc.) not historical numbers. Why? Because you have to do things now to set you up for future success, not past glory.
  - steve1977 4y ago
    Impactful doesn’t have to be positive.
    - throwaway2037 4y ago
      Brutal. I like it! Example: Working on dark e-commerce patterns. "Hey, this is impactful work. People are buying stuff they don't need!"
- bmitc 4y ago
  Isn't Apple a consumer electronics company? And aren't they notoriously antagonistic to everyone, including customers and developers, except themselves?
briandear 4y ago
At least they still have jobs.
jayd16 4y ago
"You don't get rich by writing a bunch of checks." --Bill Gates (sorta)

by oblio 4y ago

andsoitis 4y ago

Apple employees are very well compensated and get to do some really meaningful and impactful work (i.e. it is rewarding beyond just $$). If people thought the deal they have is unfair and they can get a better deal elsewhere, they'd leave in droves, but that's not the case. Some would even argue that Apple (and other big tech companies are OVERpaying...) It is also worth noting that bonuses are customarily paid when the business is doing better than projected, but Apple's revenues were down 5% in 2022.

brianwawok 4y ago
Depends on the role and company. Many companies bake a bonus target into your total compensation number you negotiate when you take the job.
npc1701d 4y ago
"I'm altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."
throw93 4y ago
> Apple employees..get to do some really meaningful and impactful work. Meaningful and impactful in what way? They make phones, that’s it. They are not solving some big world issues. World won’t end if we don’t get phones with bigger screens and better cameras every year. > Some would even argue that Apple (and other big tech companies are OVERpaying...) No. None of the tech companies are overpaying, they are in fact underpaying. Employees get a tiny fraction of the profit they generate. They are not even paying the taxes they’re supposed to. > It is also worth noting that bonuses are customarily paid when the business is doing better than projected, but Apple's revenues were down 5% in 2022. Apple made $117.2 billion in profits in 2022. Surely they can pay their employees bonuses and better wages in general if they want to.
- birdyrooster 4y ago
  Logic Pro and Final Cut Pro are used to make an enormous of excellent art and are really expressive tools.
  - guluarte 4y ago
    and so the cameras used
  - coldtea 4y ago
    So are Cubase, Pro Tools, Live, Premiere, DaVinci, and tons of others, so?
    - birdyrooster 4y ago
      I wasn't responding to how do they compete, the claim was "Meaningful and impactful in what way?" The bar to answer the question was low and I met it.
      - coldtea 4y ago
        I don't think "more of the same" meets the bar for "meaningful and impactful".
        birdyrooster 4y ago
        Those products are significantly different than each other and have their own pros and cons. It's a straw man to say that they are simply "more of the same".
- cornstalks 4y ago
  > They make phones, that’s it. Oh come on, you’re not even trying to have a fruitful discussion. You don’t have to love Apple, but at least put a sliver of effort into the discussion.
  - 4y ago
autoexec 4y ago
> If people thought the deal they have is unfair and they can get a better deal elsewhere, they'd leave in droves, This is a race to the bottom. "It's okay if Apple makes things worse for their employees as long as they are still not as bad as X". I'm sure there are people who considered their bonuses when deciding to work for Apple in the first place, and I think it's telling that Apple has decided to do this at a time when companies are laying off workers and the labor market makes "leaving in droves" unlikely. > Apple's revenues were down 5% in 2022. Frankly, it wouldn't matter since Apple is still be making obscene profits and more than enough to treat their employees far better than they were before this change, but however bad the end of 2022 was for apple they were doing better than ever just before that. > Cupertino, California October 27, 2022 Apple today announced financial results for its fiscal 2022 fourth quarter ended September 24, 2022. The Company posted a September quarter record revenue of $90.1 billion, up 8 percent year over year, and quarterly earnings per diluted share of $1.29, up 4 percent year over year. Annual revenue was $394.3 billion, up 8 percent year over year, and annual earnings per diluted share were $6.11, up 9 percent year over year. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2022/10/apple-reports-fourth-quarter-results/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2022/10/apple-reports-fourth-...
Apocryphon 4y ago
Anecdata, sure, but Apple employees seem to be relatively not as well compensated as those in other FAANG companies, at least in terms of pure salary.
- andsoitis 4y ago
  People join and stay at companies for more than just money.
  - nervlord 4y ago
    [dead]
  - Apocryphon 4y ago
    Sure, they also stay for the equity- AAPL is nothing to sneeze at. But my point (and my datapoint, as well as a few others' in terms of anecdata) is that the claim of "are very well compensated" is questionable, at least the last time I checked. And as far as "really meaningful and impactful work" - well, Apple is a very large organization, with all that entails.
  - oblio 4y ago
    And companies really like those suckers.
coldtea 4y ago
>Apple employees are very well compensated We're not comparing Apple engineers to some guy flipping burgers, but to engineers at other comparable companies. So "$X should be enough" is not the metric. There's no cutoff for "well compensated". It depends on how much profit the company makes and how much you bring in. Apple is notorious for not compensating its people well, given that it doesn't have the most generous of salaries compared to other FAANGs and has more strict working conditions - while having the biggest profit margins. >If people thought the deal they have is unfair and they can get a better deal elsewhere, they'd leave in droves, but that's not the case. Many top devs have left Apple over the years exactly for such reasons. And people factor in other stuff too, for many years for many employees Apple was more based on instilling a cult-like, reality-distortion-based hold to be "glad to be working at Apple" than actual conpensation. You know, of the "Apple employees get to do some really meaningful and impactful work" variety... >Apple's revenues were down 5% in 2022. Why, does Apple share its profits with employees the years that they're up 5%?
- TechBro8615 4y ago
  And let's not forget the wage fixing scandal where Apple and Google colluded for years to artificially suppress engineer salaries through illegal anti-poaching agreements.
- andsoitis 4y ago
  > It depends on how much profit the company makes and how much you bring in. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how (labor) markets work. A company doesn't exist in order to funnel all its profit to its workers. Labor is a market just like other inputs, in the sense that there is supply and demand, so compensation is a function of that, not how much profit a company makes. > You know, of the "Apple employees get to do some really meaningful and impactful work" variety... To imply to someone who chooses to be at Apple over a place like Amazon or Meta (or non-tech company) that they are delusional and that their work is meaningless and has zero impact in this world is truly and utterly insulting.
  - coldtea 4y ago
    >This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how (labor) markets work No, it usually is a disagreement on how they should work (usually with the conventional way presented as some inviolatable physical law). But that's irrelevant, as I wasn't aiming to critique labor markers and capitalism in the comment, or say that a "company exists in order to funnel all its profit to its workers". That whatever they pay will be shaped by supply and demand and acceptable to people in the job market looking for a job is a given, a tautology actually. Still, how well a company pays depends on how much of its profit it gives away. That whatever it does end paying will be ammenable to "supply and demand" doesn't mean there aren't companies paying well above market value for the same roles as others who pay less - even if the former don't need to do that to get employees.
ip26 4y ago
worth noting that bonuses are customarily paid when the business is doing better than projected I've been chewing on this part. It's odd for a large profitable company to tighten the belt over a small miss that still left them large and profitable; they are not in trouble and their people aren't responsible for the macro. On the other hand, it's also no good to handsomely reward people when the business is not performing as it should; it misaligns key incentives. Perhaps a good balance would be to retroactively adjust business targets for the purposes of the bonus; "One year ago, $X revenue looked feasible. Knowing what we know now, $Y would have been more in line with this year's market". Then you still measure collective success, but don't punish people for missing what turned out to be an impossible target.
throwaway2037 4y ago
Are you working for Apple? If yes, you should disclose. This term "impactful work" makes me and many people here cringe. Can you provide some specific examples? Second, you spoke about revenues. What matters is profits. Walmart has insanely large revenues, but modest profits, due to very tight margins. And, about Apple's profits in 2021 and 2022, I googled: "apple profits 2021 and 2022". Top hit says: "Apple annual gross profit for 2022 was $170.782B, a 11.74% increase from 2021." Ref: https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AAPL/apple/gross-profit https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AAPL/apple/gross-p...
- andsoitis 4y ago
  > What matters is profits. Worth noting is that Apple missed investor expectations around profit for 2022, and more importantly, diluted EPS. However, what really matters is the future outlook (expected profit, macro economic forecasts, etc.) not historical numbers. Why? Because you have to do things now to set you up for future success, not past glory.
- steve1977 4y ago
  Impactful doesn’t have to be positive.
  - throwaway2037 4y ago
    Brutal. I like it! Example: Working on dark e-commerce patterns. "Hey, this is impactful work. People are buying stuff they don't need!"
bmitc 4y ago
Isn't Apple a consumer electronics company? And aren't they notoriously antagonistic to everyone, including customers and developers, except themselves?

briandear 4y ago

At least they still have jobs.

jayd16 4y ago

"You don't get rich by writing a bunch of checks." --Bill Gates (sorta)