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I’m not sure how you can read hostility into my comment when I plainly stated I didn’t think you were commenting with ill intent. Ignorance doesn’t require inte

I’m not sure how you can read hostility into my comment when I plainly stated I didn’t think you were commenting with ill intent. Ignorance doesn’t require intent though. ASL isn’t a “foreign” language. It’s an American language. In fact, it’s more “American” than English. People who communicate via ASL aren’t foreigners on holiday. They’re our friends and family and neighbors. You are absolutely correct in your assumption that being able to communicate with those around you is important! Imagine if everyone around you just refused to engage with you verbally and would only communicate via text messages. If you’re speaking they completely ignore you until you write it down. If they’re speaking while you’re around it’s always in whispers so that you can really only get bits and pieces. How would you feel? Annoyed? Excluded? Like you’re not able to fully understand conversations? Your travel analogy doesn’t hold water because (in addition to Deaf people not being foreigners or guests!) you seem unwilling or unable to understand that (1) hearing is a critical component of effective verbal communication and (2) Deaf people can’t hear. Again, I’ll chalk it up to ignorance rather than ill intent but your analogy as a whole is pretty gross to paint Deaf people as entitled, unreasonable, and demanding. Your analogy is akin to suggesting it’s unreasonable for me, a person who can walk, to rollerskate everywhere I go and it would be unreasonable for me to expect curb cuts just so I could rollerskate everywhere so therefore it’s unreasonable for people who use a wheelchair to expect curb cuts. If someone who uses a wheelchair wants to use the sidewalk they should just try fucking walking right? I don’t know why no one has thought of that!

generalizations 4y ago
That's fair. It's easy to read hostility where there isn't any. > ASL isn’t a “foreign” language. It’s an American language. Elsewhere in this thread you mentioned that "ASL is a complete and distinct natural language in its own right," and that's the sense I was trying to convey by calling it a "foreign" language. It's as hard to acquire as a foreign language, and carries the same benefits. And it fit the analogy. I appreciate both of your analogies, but I think they aren't quite fair. Not going to the massive effort of learning a new language isn't really the same as 'refusing to engage'. And the analogies seem to understate the effort involved by everyone who is not deaf to learn ASL. It's just not as easy as installing curb cuts (I could probably do one of those in an afternoon...become conversational in ASL? not so much). I guess, to me, it comes down to the level of effort being asked of me. I'm happy to be accommodating, up to a point. Let's engage in whatever medium is most suited. But asking me to put in the massive time and intellectual commitment of learning a new language is past that point. And I think that's the case for a lot of other people as well; maybe most. > If someone who uses a wheelchair wants to use the sidewalk they should just try fucking walking right? I don’t know why no one has thought of that! I had a relative who was deaf. An engineer. He learned to lip read, and that gave him more freedom to work with others and be effective in communities that did not know ASL.
- elliekelly 4y ago
  Do you realize that “learn to lip read” isn’t feasible for a lot of people? That’s great that lip reading worked for the one Deaf person you know. But Deaf people, like the population at large, are all different people. It’s cruel and ridiculous to suggest all Deaf people should just learn to lip read. I tried to explain the cruel history behind your callous remark. I tried to give you an opportunity to empathize with how a Deaf might feel. I tried to offer some perspective as to why the views you’ve expressed are narrow-minded. I tried to educate you. But you’re just here to argue. You don’t want to put in the effort so it’s the Deaf community’s fault they can’t effectively communicate with you and people like you? Spanish is easy enough to learn for your trip but ASL is too difficult to learn? You know one person who lip reads so everyone must be able to? You’re not even willing to consider for a moment that your gut-opinion or the second-hand experience of the ONE person you know might not be universal. I don’t have anything else to say to you except that I hope you take a few minutes to read about ASL and Deaf culture and history and take a few minutes to reflect.
  - generalizations 4y ago
    > But you’re just here to argue. Or you're just here to educate, and if someone questions you, you scold them for moral inferiority.
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    >It’s cruel and ridiculous to suggest all Deaf people should just learn to lip read. Yet you seem to think everyone is obligated to learn sign language... >Spanish is easy enough to learn for your trip but ASL is too difficult to learn? Spanish is NOT "easy enough to learn"; perhaps some basic phrases for tourists, but certainly not fluency. It takes years to master a new language for most people, if ever. Spanish is relatively easier for English speakers than many other languages, such as Japanese, but it's not something you're going to become conversational in quickly unless you're gifted at language learning. The idea that people are somehow "cruel" and "narrow-minded" for not learning a particular language that isn't the dominant language in their region is the most ridiculous thing I've read all day, and that includes the comments from North Korea supporters here.

generalizations 4y ago

That's fair. It's easy to read hostility where there isn't any. > ASL isn’t a “foreign” language. It’s an American language. Elsewhere in this thread you mentioned that "ASL is a complete and distinct natural language in its own right," and that's the sense I was trying to convey by calling it a "foreign" language. It's as hard to acquire as a foreign language, and carries the same benefits. And it fit the analogy. I appreciate both of your analogies, but I think they aren't quite fair. Not going to the massive effort of learning a new language isn't really the same as 'refusing to engage'. And the analogies seem to understate the effort involved by everyone who is not deaf to learn ASL. It's just not as easy as installing curb cuts (I could probably do one of those in an afternoon...become conversational in ASL? not so much). I guess, to me, it comes down to the level of effort being asked of me. I'm happy to be accommodating, up to a point. Let's engage in whatever medium is most suited. But asking me to put in the massive time and intellectual commitment of learning a new language is past that point. And I think that's the case for a lot of other people as well; maybe most. > If someone who uses a wheelchair wants to use the sidewalk they should just try fucking walking right? I don’t know why no one has thought of that! I had a relative who was deaf. An engineer. He learned to lip read, and that gave him more freedom to work with others and be effective in communities that did not know ASL.

elliekelly 4y ago
Do you realize that “learn to lip read” isn’t feasible for a lot of people? That’s great that lip reading worked for the one Deaf person you know. But Deaf people, like the population at large, are all different people. It’s cruel and ridiculous to suggest all Deaf people should just learn to lip read. I tried to explain the cruel history behind your callous remark. I tried to give you an opportunity to empathize with how a Deaf might feel. I tried to offer some perspective as to why the views you’ve expressed are narrow-minded. I tried to educate you. But you’re just here to argue. You don’t want to put in the effort so it’s the Deaf community’s fault they can’t effectively communicate with you and people like you? Spanish is easy enough to learn for your trip but ASL is too difficult to learn? You know one person who lip reads so everyone must be able to? You’re not even willing to consider for a moment that your gut-opinion or the second-hand experience of the ONE person you know might not be universal. I don’t have anything else to say to you except that I hope you take a few minutes to read about ASL and Deaf culture and history and take a few minutes to reflect.
- generalizations 4y ago
  > But you’re just here to argue. Or you're just here to educate, and if someone questions you, you scold them for moral inferiority.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  >It’s cruel and ridiculous to suggest all Deaf people should just learn to lip read. Yet you seem to think everyone is obligated to learn sign language... >Spanish is easy enough to learn for your trip but ASL is too difficult to learn? Spanish is NOT "easy enough to learn"; perhaps some basic phrases for tourists, but certainly not fluency. It takes years to master a new language for most people, if ever. Spanish is relatively easier for English speakers than many other languages, such as Japanese, but it's not something you're going to become conversational in quickly unless you're gifted at language learning. The idea that people are somehow "cruel" and "narrow-minded" for not learning a particular language that isn't the dominant language in their region is the most ridiculous thing I've read all day, and that includes the comments from North Korea supporters here.