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And according to me that's sensationalist bullshit - the Ukraine crisis is clearly a local one, one that has been brewing for a very very long time. And inciden

by spurgu 4y ago

And according to me that's sensationalist bullshit - the Ukraine crisis is clearly a local one, one that has been brewing for a very very long time. And incidentally one that the US has been keen on nurturing due to its detrimental effects to Russia, but western propaganda portrays Russia as wanting this (for imperialistic reasons or whatever).

mrguyorama 4y ago
Russia doesn't want this? Which is why they invaded their sovereign neighbor and refuse to leave?
- spurgu 4y ago
  Why would they want a costly conflict like this? If they didn't enter to begin with the Donbass would've gotten run over. And if they would leave now the same thing would happen. And nothing would've changed with their NATO dilemma (and you can shout "defensive alliance" all you want, Russia is not going to buy that).
  - cafard 4y ago
    The Donbass would have gotten run over how, when, and by whom?
    - spurgu 4y ago
      How: By force (as opposed to achieving a peaceful resolution through adhering to the Minsk agreements which admittedly was just a ploy on Ukraine's side to buy time to build up for an offensive) When: OSCE reports show increased activity in the area (the majority of it on the Donbass side of the neutral zone) during the two weeks leading up to the invasion. From that perspective it looks like it was in the process of happening when Russia stepped in. By whom: The Ukrainian regime (feels a bit weird to even have to answer this question).
rocket_surgeron 4y ago
>the Ukraine crisis is clearly a local one Genocide is very rarely a local crisis. "Russia isn't genoci..." Yes. Yes they are. They are committing genocide against the Ukrainian people by all legal and colloquial definitions of the word "genocide". Here are several hundred instances where Russian politicians and media figures called for genocide: https://www.justsecurity.org/81789/russias-eliminationist-rhetoric-against-ukraine-a-collection/ https://www.justsecurity.org/81789/russias-eliminationist-rh... If the United States invaded and tried to annex Canada through sham referenda held at the point of a gun after a years-long campaign to vilify them as commies, promised to destroy its national identity, and relocated its children south of the border for Americanization and reeducation, people's tones would be very different. > but western propaganda portrays Russia as wanting this In the above link there are several hundred official statements from Russian politicians confirming that they indeed do want this. With links to the statements.
- spurgu 4y ago
  Genocide... seems like words don't have the same meaning that they used to. Killing soldiers is not genocide. You had people (probably yourself included) calling Russia's actions "genocide" a year ago already, long before the gloves were off in September (after Daria Dugina was murdered and the truck bomb attack damaged the Crimean bridge). What's it been after that, super-mega-genocidal? Give me a break. Genocide is nothing but a buzzword in this context. > Here are several hundred instances where Russian politicians and media figures called for genocide By that account Putin is a humanitarian hero, given that the actions of Russia have largely gone against "the wish of the people". It also makes the shouts for "regime change" quite ridiculous - what's that supposed to achieve if the alternative regime leaders are among those quoted in the article? A more "true Russian" regime? Should we make this fair, maybe I should put up a collection of what various Ukrainians have been saying about Russians (long before the 2022 invasion)? There is a lot of material there... > If the United States invaded and tried to annex... [snip] ...people's tones would be very different. Funny that you would bring that up. In fact people's tones are very different. I don't remember seeing people calling out "genocide!" in any of the war campaigns of the United States (Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc) that actually killed a lot of civilians, nor have I seen any calls to ban American athletes from any sports events, nor have I seen any suggestions for sanctions. The hypocrisy is mind-blowing. > In the above link there are several hundred official statements from Russian politicians confirming that they indeed do want this. And very few of the quotes are by Putin and the ones that are there are quite mellow. So again, if he's the "tyrannical dictator" that the west tries to portray him as he should instead be seen as a hero for moderating Russia's actions the way he does, wouldn't you say?
SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
> the Ukraine crisis is clearly a local one Most countries are not treating it that way. Because it is not.

by spurgu 4y ago

mrguyorama 4y ago

Russia doesn't want this? Which is why they invaded their sovereign neighbor and refuse to leave?

spurgu 4y ago
Why would they want a costly conflict like this? If they didn't enter to begin with the Donbass would've gotten run over. And if they would leave now the same thing would happen. And nothing would've changed with their NATO dilemma (and you can shout "defensive alliance" all you want, Russia is not going to buy that).
- cafard 4y ago
  The Donbass would have gotten run over how, when, and by whom?
  - spurgu 4y ago
    How: By force (as opposed to achieving a peaceful resolution through adhering to the Minsk agreements which admittedly was just a ploy on Ukraine's side to buy time to build up for an offensive) When: OSCE reports show increased activity in the area (the majority of it on the Donbass side of the neutral zone) during the two weeks leading up to the invasion. From that perspective it looks like it was in the process of happening when Russia stepped in. By whom: The Ukrainian regime (feels a bit weird to even have to answer this question).

rocket_surgeron 4y ago

>the Ukraine crisis is clearly a local one Genocide is very rarely a local crisis. "Russia isn't genoci..." Yes. Yes they are. They are committing genocide against the Ukrainian people by all legal and colloquial definitions of the word "genocide". Here are several hundred instances where Russian politicians and media figures called for genocide: https://www.justsecurity.org/81789/russias-eliminationist-rhetoric-against-ukraine-a-collection/ https://www.justsecurity.org/81789/russias-eliminationist-rh... If the United States invaded and tried to annex Canada through sham referenda held at the point of a gun after a years-long campaign to vilify them as commies, promised to destroy its national identity, and relocated its children south of the border for Americanization and reeducation, people's tones would be very different. > but western propaganda portrays Russia as wanting this In the above link there are several hundred official statements from Russian politicians confirming that they indeed do want this. With links to the statements.

spurgu 4y ago
Genocide... seems like words don't have the same meaning that they used to. Killing soldiers is not genocide. You had people (probably yourself included) calling Russia's actions "genocide" a year ago already, long before the gloves were off in September (after Daria Dugina was murdered and the truck bomb attack damaged the Crimean bridge). What's it been after that, super-mega-genocidal? Give me a break. Genocide is nothing but a buzzword in this context. > Here are several hundred instances where Russian politicians and media figures called for genocide By that account Putin is a humanitarian hero, given that the actions of Russia have largely gone against "the wish of the people". It also makes the shouts for "regime change" quite ridiculous - what's that supposed to achieve if the alternative regime leaders are among those quoted in the article? A more "true Russian" regime? Should we make this fair, maybe I should put up a collection of what various Ukrainians have been saying about Russians (long before the 2022 invasion)? There is a lot of material there... > If the United States invaded and tried to annex... [snip] ...people's tones would be very different. Funny that you would bring that up. In fact people's tones are very different. I don't remember seeing people calling out "genocide!" in any of the war campaigns of the United States (Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc) that actually killed a lot of civilians, nor have I seen any calls to ban American athletes from any sports events, nor have I seen any suggestions for sanctions. The hypocrisy is mind-blowing. > In the above link there are several hundred official statements from Russian politicians confirming that they indeed do want this. And very few of the quotes are by Putin and the ones that are there are quite mellow. So again, if he's the "tyrannical dictator" that the west tries to portray him as he should instead be seen as a hero for moderating Russia's actions the way he does, wouldn't you say?

SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago

> the Ukraine crisis is clearly a local one Most countries are not treating it that way. Because it is not.