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I like the idea of such a computer, but is there a reason why the "full package" costs almost the same price as a M2 MacBook Pro? I may not be the target audien

I like the idea of such a computer, but is there a reason why the "full package" costs almost the same price as a M2 MacBook Pro? I may not be the target audience but it feels strange.

kop316 4y ago
Economies of scale. It looks like they are targeting ~150 of them to ship ($135,000/$900 = 135). If I assume their non-recurring engineering costs is %50 of the price, that means the budget for designing/tooling/etc. is $67,500, which is actually much, much lower than I actually expected. A Macbook on the other hand is targeting millions of devices. If we assume, let's say, a Macbooks budget for the same thing was $500M, selling only 10M puts the individual NRE cost to be $50.
mntmn 4y ago
Simple: we are a tiny company and make this in little quantities, end-assembled in Berlin, Germany. The BOM is >$500 and we have to pay platform fees as well.
- ploum 4y ago
  You may also add that MNT product are built for the long-term. While the nice macbook today will be an old cranky thing in 3 years and a piece of junk in 8.
- jancsika 4y ago
  What are platform fees?
  - napkin 4y ago
    I guess at least mouser/crowdsupply
bogantech 4y ago
Probably a combination of A) because they're all hand assembled in Germany by people who are paid a liveable wage B) because people will pay that for shiny nerd toys
- ploum 4y ago
  Ordered one and, yes, I’m ready to pay for something which is open, designed for free software and is repairable. Also happy to know that my money support real human which are working on inspiring projects and that I can even follow on Mastodon. Had to work with macbook for multiple years. Will not buy one even for half the price. Knowing that my money is basically going into billionaires pocket so workers in China are building, in terrible conditions, what is a shiny marketed/hipsterish toy that will end as a polluting piece of junk in a few years is not my philosophical ideal.
timdeve 4y ago
Yeah I would really like Pine64 to take a stab at this form factor. I guess the closest is the keyboard for the pinephone but that's a tiny screen.
- pengaru 4y ago
  I'm fairly certain mnt customers have much better experiences interacting with the business than pine64 customers do. mntmn often corresponds with Reform users directly in the irc channel. This is the better business to support from where I'm sitting. - disgruntled early pinephone order survivor
  - officeplant 4y ago
    Pine64 dumps a lot of responsibility on their user base, but in their defense they do list nearly everything they sell with warnings about how they are for developers willing to put in the extra effort. Similarly MNT warns people about going with RISC-V options in their products. I really hope MNT can get their risc-v modules bumped up with the new SoC's hitting the marking in the coming year as support is born.
    - pengaru 4y ago
      > Pine64 dumps a lot of responsibility on their user base, but in their defense they do list nearly everything they sell with warnings about how they are for developers willing to put in the extra effort. That's no excuse for problems in order fulfillment, poor communication of delays, and months of silent treatment when cancelling. The whole experience resembled buying from a flaky unresponsive ebay seller. It's just not operationally well run in my experience, YMMV. The disclaimer is acceptable for things like dead pixels or poor/unstable driver support... I'm not referring to anything along those lines.
- slondr 4y ago
  The PinePhone has a 6" screen, the Pocket Reform has a 7" screen. That's enough to make a noticeable difference for sure, but it's not incomparable, especially considering the PPKB goes to the very edge of the device and the Pocket Reform has an obvious bezel.

I like the idea of such a computer, but is there a reason why the "full package" costs almost the same price as a M2 MacBook Pro? I may not be the target audience but it feels strange.

kop316 4y ago

Economies of scale. It looks like they are targeting ~150 of them to ship ($135,000/$900 = 135). If I assume their non-recurring engineering costs is %50 of the price, that means the budget for designing/tooling/etc. is $67,500, which is actually much, much lower than I actually expected. A Macbook on the other hand is targeting millions of devices. If we assume, let's say, a Macbooks budget for the same thing was $500M, selling only 10M puts the individual NRE cost to be $50.

mntmn 4y ago

Simple: we are a tiny company and make this in little quantities, end-assembled in Berlin, Germany. The BOM is >$500 and we have to pay platform fees as well.

ploum 4y ago
You may also add that MNT product are built for the long-term. While the nice macbook today will be an old cranky thing in 3 years and a piece of junk in 8.
jancsika 4y ago
What are platform fees?
- napkin 4y ago
  I guess at least mouser/crowdsupply

bogantech 4y ago

Probably a combination of A) because they're all hand assembled in Germany by people who are paid a liveable wage B) because people will pay that for shiny nerd toys

ploum 4y ago
Ordered one and, yes, I’m ready to pay for something which is open, designed for free software and is repairable. Also happy to know that my money support real human which are working on inspiring projects and that I can even follow on Mastodon. Had to work with macbook for multiple years. Will not buy one even for half the price. Knowing that my money is basically going into billionaires pocket so workers in China are building, in terrible conditions, what is a shiny marketed/hipsterish toy that will end as a polluting piece of junk in a few years is not my philosophical ideal.

timdeve 4y ago

Yeah I would really like Pine64 to take a stab at this form factor. I guess the closest is the keyboard for the pinephone but that's a tiny screen.

pengaru 4y ago
I'm fairly certain mnt customers have much better experiences interacting with the business than pine64 customers do. mntmn often corresponds with Reform users directly in the irc channel. This is the better business to support from where I'm sitting. - disgruntled early pinephone order survivor
- officeplant 4y ago
  Pine64 dumps a lot of responsibility on their user base, but in their defense they do list nearly everything they sell with warnings about how they are for developers willing to put in the extra effort. Similarly MNT warns people about going with RISC-V options in their products. I really hope MNT can get their risc-v modules bumped up with the new SoC's hitting the marking in the coming year as support is born.
  - pengaru 4y ago
    > Pine64 dumps a lot of responsibility on their user base, but in their defense they do list nearly everything they sell with warnings about how they are for developers willing to put in the extra effort. That's no excuse for problems in order fulfillment, poor communication of delays, and months of silent treatment when cancelling. The whole experience resembled buying from a flaky unresponsive ebay seller. It's just not operationally well run in my experience, YMMV. The disclaimer is acceptable for things like dead pixels or poor/unstable driver support... I'm not referring to anything along those lines.
slondr 4y ago
The PinePhone has a 6" screen, the Pocket Reform has a 7" screen. That's enough to make a noticeable difference for sure, but it's not incomparable, especially considering the PPKB goes to the very edge of the device and the Pocket Reform has an obvious bezel.