7 ms·

MNT Pocket Reform open for orders

114 points by yuvadam 4y ago

tristor 4y ago
This looks very interesting to me. I'm especially impressed they managed to get a mechanical keyboard into this form factor. The only downside I can see is it seems it has a pretty underpowered CPU and only 8GB of RAM. With a little bit more oomph, I could see this becoming my primary travel device.
- mntmn 4y ago
  Thanks for the feedback! If our campaign succeeds, we'll follow up with next-gen processor modules. After all, CPU/GPU/RAM is on an exchangeable module.
  - ploum 4y ago
    I guess it will be enough to run Neovim/Neomutt and Offpunk in sway ;-)
  - tristor 4y ago
    That's great to hear. My wishlist for this would be 16GB of RAM and a faster CPU, preferably something that is at least 3GHz w/ 4 cores if it's ARM based. I'd be happy to trade off battery life for performance here, because it'd allow me to use this with a lightweight Linux setup to do a majority of my work. The challenge is that I am locked into using web applications that would be non-performant on the current specifications, for example Google Workspaces + Slack + Sharepoint/O365 (yes I use /both/ Google Workspaces and O365), so the underlying hardware resources need to be present to run Firefox w/ these apps open without feeling sluggish. If I could do that, I could migrate off my Mac and use this as my primary work device while traveling, which would be really nice, since I like the keyboard.
JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 4y ago
I like the idea of such a computer, but is there a reason why the "full package" costs almost the same price as a M2 MacBook Pro? I may not be the target audience but it feels strange.
- kop316 4y ago
  Economies of scale. It looks like they are targeting ~150 of them to ship ($135,000/$900 = 135). If I assume their non-recurring engineering costs is %50 of the price, that means the budget for designing/tooling/etc. is $67,500, which is actually much, much lower than I actually expected. A Macbook on the other hand is targeting millions of devices. If we assume, let's say, a Macbooks budget for the same thing was $500M, selling only 10M puts the individual NRE cost to be $50.
- mntmn 4y ago
  Simple: we are a tiny company and make this in little quantities, end-assembled in Berlin, Germany. The BOM is >$500 and we have to pay platform fees as well.
  - ploum 4y ago
    You may also add that MNT product are built for the long-term. While the nice macbook today will be an old cranky thing in 3 years and a piece of junk in 8.
  - jancsika 4y ago
    What are platform fees?
    - napkin 4y ago
      I guess at least mouser/crowdsupply
- bogantech 4y ago
  Probably a combination of A) because they're all hand assembled in Germany by people who are paid a liveable wage B) because people will pay that for shiny nerd toys
  - ploum 4y ago
    Ordered one and, yes, I’m ready to pay for something which is open, designed for free software and is repairable. Also happy to know that my money support real human which are working on inspiring projects and that I can even follow on Mastodon. Had to work with macbook for multiple years. Will not buy one even for half the price. Knowing that my money is basically going into billionaires pocket so workers in China are building, in terrible conditions, what is a shiny marketed/hipsterish toy that will end as a polluting piece of junk in a few years is not my philosophical ideal.
napkin 4y ago
I love the Reform (typing on one now). Over the last couple years it has been remarkably dependable, and I've been able to make a few mods to it- such as changing out the keyboard PCB/switches to choc white. I really appreciate that the new SOM for the Pocket will be compatible with the Reform. I can't afford a Pocket, but I will be upgrading my Reform.
rwl4 4y ago
The thing is... I have a GPD Win Max 2. It's not very repairable. The company is questionable. If it breaks, I might be in trouble. But I run Arch Linux on it, play AAA games using Steam, Proton and gamescope, and the screen is practically bezel-free. The keyboard is quite decent for the size, and the price is in the range of the Pocket Reform, so it would be hard for me to ever justify a low performance ARM device with an 7" screen that is around the same size and weight. I guess I'm definitely not in the intended audience here. MNT Pocket Reform: Screen: 7" Size: 20 × 12.6 × 4.5 cm Weight: 1100 g GPD Win Max 2: Screen: 10.1" Size: 22.7 × 16.0 × 2.3 cm Weight: 1005 g Now, if they came out with an actual palmtop around the size of the old HP 200LX I would buy it regardless of the specs if it ran Linux and had a good keyboard.
- mntmn 4y ago
  I feel you. High performance (for gaming, x64 emulation, stuff like Blender) is our next big topic. First, we wanted to establish a good foundation. Edit: clarification of "performance"
  - rwl4 4y ago
    I do want to add that I really hope these sell like crazy so you can get enough volume to get some higher performance ARM chips in future models! I _do_ think these are amazing looking little devices and would 100% buy it for light work and play if I didn't have my Max 2. In fact, I just placed an order for your Supporter Pack to show solidarity. :) Good luck!
    - mntmn 4y ago
      Thank you very much!
- WhyCause 4y ago
  There is the Planet Gemini [1]. My understanding is that the company was founded by some ex-Psion folk, and the keyboard on the Gemini is supposed to be pretty close to the one on the Series 5. The Gemini runs both Android and Linux. Having owned both a 200LX and a Psion Series 5 (and other handhelds), I wish I could justify buying the Gemini. Unfortunately, I already have too many bits of tech I don't use regularly to warrant another to go on the pile. [1] https://www.www3.planetcom.co.uk/gemini-pda https://www.www3.planetcom.co.uk/gemini-pda
RodgerTheGreat 4y ago
Without a doubt, this is a cute little device that could be useful in many situations. I'll admit, though, that I'm a little disappointed at the choice of 2x USB-C ports instead of including USB-A. USB-A is still so much more commonplace, and avoids the mystery-meat cable problems of C.
- bigfishrunning 4y ago
  Slap one of these on the end of your usb-a cables and you're good to go https://www.amazon.com/Adapter-Benfei-Compatible-MacBook-Samsung/dp/B07VP4R8P5/ref=asc_df_B07VP4R8P5?tag=bngsmtphsnus-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80608063550952&hvnetw=s&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584207590147412&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/Adapter-Benfei-Compatible-MacBook-Sam...
  - RodgerTheGreat 4y ago
    If I have to carry a collection of dongles with me it rather undercuts the portability of a device.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
snvzz 4y ago
>NXP i.MX8M Plus >Cortex-A53 The SoC uses a microarchitecture that implements the legacy proprietary ISA (ARM), yet is much slower than the RISC-V SiFive U74, which is already available in SoCs such as the JH7110 used in VisionFive 2. Sad choice in 2023. I'll be skipping this otherwise appealing device. Maybe a future cpu module will be based on a SoC based on the open standard ISA.
- Taniwha 4y ago
  There are a whole lot of different imx8s some better some worse, FWIW I think they're using this module (4+1 core 1.8GHz): https://boundarydevices.com/product/nitrogen8m-plus-som/ https://boundarydevices.com/product/nitrogen8m-plus-som/ It's a plug in module plugged into another plug in module, no reason why you couldn't hack up a RISC-V upgrade here
  - snvzz 4y ago
    Hopefully we'll get a RISC-V module at some point. RISC-V got strong enough that I am not looking at ARM options anymore.
- slondr 4y ago
  From the original Reform product page: > We selected their "Nitrogen8M SOM" module for Reform because it is the only available module for which you can download the complete schematics and understand what every component does. There are also a number of community SOM projects for the original which should work with the Pocket, including a raspberry pi CM4, and a Layerscape 1028A
- stonogo 4y ago
  You're comparing a 5W CPU to an entire SoM that only draws 2W. Just making that switch cuts battery life to a little over an hour in this device. You're also comparing a SiFive product whose documentation is mostly "this document will be updated soon" to a product that comes with complete schematics and all the documentation you could ask for. I don't think you understand the design considerations at play here.
efficax 4y ago
Am I right that it claims a battery life of only 4 hours? Might as well not have a battery at all! I'd take an even less beefy cpu / gpu for a 12 hour battery on a device like this

114 points by yuvadam 4y ago

This looks very interesting to me. I'm especially impressed they managed to get a mechanical keyboard into this form factor. The only downside I can see is it seems it has a pretty underpowered CPU and only 8GB of RAM. With a little bit more oomph, I could see this becoming my primary travel device.

mntmn 4y ago
Thanks for the feedback! If our campaign succeeds, we'll follow up with next-gen processor modules. After all, CPU/GPU/RAM is on an exchangeable module.
- ploum 4y ago
  I guess it will be enough to run Neovim/Neomutt and Offpunk in sway ;-)
- tristor 4y ago
  That's great to hear. My wishlist for this would be 16GB of RAM and a faster CPU, preferably something that is at least 3GHz w/ 4 cores if it's ARM based. I'd be happy to trade off battery life for performance here, because it'd allow me to use this with a lightweight Linux setup to do a majority of my work. The challenge is that I am locked into using web applications that would be non-performant on the current specifications, for example Google Workspaces + Slack + Sharepoint/O365 (yes I use /both/ Google Workspaces and O365), so the underlying hardware resources need to be present to run Firefox w/ these apps open without feeling sluggish. If I could do that, I could migrate off my Mac and use this as my primary work device while traveling, which would be really nice, since I like the keyboard.

JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 4y ago

I like the idea of such a computer, but is there a reason why the "full package" costs almost the same price as a M2 MacBook Pro? I may not be the target audience but it feels strange.

kop316 4y ago
Economies of scale. It looks like they are targeting ~150 of them to ship ($135,000/$900 = 135). If I assume their non-recurring engineering costs is %50 of the price, that means the budget for designing/tooling/etc. is $67,500, which is actually much, much lower than I actually expected. A Macbook on the other hand is targeting millions of devices. If we assume, let's say, a Macbooks budget for the same thing was $500M, selling only 10M puts the individual NRE cost to be $50.
mntmn 4y ago
Simple: we are a tiny company and make this in little quantities, end-assembled in Berlin, Germany. The BOM is >$500 and we have to pay platform fees as well.
- ploum 4y ago
  You may also add that MNT product are built for the long-term. While the nice macbook today will be an old cranky thing in 3 years and a piece of junk in 8.
- jancsika 4y ago
  What are platform fees?
  - napkin 4y ago
    I guess at least mouser/crowdsupply
bogantech 4y ago
Probably a combination of A) because they're all hand assembled in Germany by people who are paid a liveable wage B) because people will pay that for shiny nerd toys
- ploum 4y ago
  Ordered one and, yes, I’m ready to pay for something which is open, designed for free software and is repairable. Also happy to know that my money support real human which are working on inspiring projects and that I can even follow on Mastodon. Had to work with macbook for multiple years. Will not buy one even for half the price. Knowing that my money is basically going into billionaires pocket so workers in China are building, in terrible conditions, what is a shiny marketed/hipsterish toy that will end as a polluting piece of junk in a few years is not my philosophical ideal.

napkin 4y ago

I love the Reform (typing on one now). Over the last couple years it has been remarkably dependable, and I've been able to make a few mods to it- such as changing out the keyboard PCB/switches to choc white. I really appreciate that the new SOM for the Pocket will be compatible with the Reform. I can't afford a Pocket, but I will be upgrading my Reform.

rwl4 4y ago

The thing is... I have a GPD Win Max 2. It's not very repairable. The company is questionable. If it breaks, I might be in trouble. But I run Arch Linux on it, play AAA games using Steam, Proton and gamescope, and the screen is practically bezel-free. The keyboard is quite decent for the size, and the price is in the range of the Pocket Reform, so it would be hard for me to ever justify a low performance ARM device with an 7" screen that is around the same size and weight. I guess I'm definitely not in the intended audience here. MNT Pocket Reform: Screen: 7" Size: 20 × 12.6 × 4.5 cm Weight: 1100 g GPD Win Max 2: Screen: 10.1" Size: 22.7 × 16.0 × 2.3 cm Weight: 1005 g Now, if they came out with an actual palmtop around the size of the old HP 200LX I would buy it regardless of the specs if it ran Linux and had a good keyboard.

mntmn 4y ago
I feel you. High performance (for gaming, x64 emulation, stuff like Blender) is our next big topic. First, we wanted to establish a good foundation. Edit: clarification of "performance"
- rwl4 4y ago
  I do want to add that I really hope these sell like crazy so you can get enough volume to get some higher performance ARM chips in future models! I _do_ think these are amazing looking little devices and would 100% buy it for light work and play if I didn't have my Max 2. In fact, I just placed an order for your Supporter Pack to show solidarity. :) Good luck!
  - mntmn 4y ago
    Thank you very much!
WhyCause 4y ago
There is the Planet Gemini [1]. My understanding is that the company was founded by some ex-Psion folk, and the keyboard on the Gemini is supposed to be pretty close to the one on the Series 5. The Gemini runs both Android and Linux. Having owned both a 200LX and a Psion Series 5 (and other handhelds), I wish I could justify buying the Gemini. Unfortunately, I already have too many bits of tech I don't use regularly to warrant another to go on the pile. [1] https://www.www3.planetcom.co.uk/gemini-pda https://www.www3.planetcom.co.uk/gemini-pda

RodgerTheGreat 4y ago

Without a doubt, this is a cute little device that could be useful in many situations. I'll admit, though, that I'm a little disappointed at the choice of 2x USB-C ports instead of including USB-A. USB-A is still so much more commonplace, and avoids the mystery-meat cable problems of C.

bigfishrunning 4y ago
Slap one of these on the end of your usb-a cables and you're good to go https://www.amazon.com/Adapter-Benfei-Compatible-MacBook-Samsung/dp/B07VP4R8P5/ref=asc_df_B07VP4R8P5?tag=bngsmtphsnus-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80608063550952&hvnetw=s&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584207590147412&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/Adapter-Benfei-Compatible-MacBook-Sam...
- RodgerTheGreat 4y ago
  If I have to carry a collection of dongles with me it rather undercuts the portability of a device.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

snvzz 4y ago

>NXP i.MX8M Plus >Cortex-A53 The SoC uses a microarchitecture that implements the legacy proprietary ISA (ARM), yet is much slower than the RISC-V SiFive U74, which is already available in SoCs such as the JH7110 used in VisionFive 2. Sad choice in 2023. I'll be skipping this otherwise appealing device. Maybe a future cpu module will be based on a SoC based on the open standard ISA.

Taniwha 4y ago
There are a whole lot of different imx8s some better some worse, FWIW I think they're using this module (4+1 core 1.8GHz): https://boundarydevices.com/product/nitrogen8m-plus-som/ https://boundarydevices.com/product/nitrogen8m-plus-som/ It's a plug in module plugged into another plug in module, no reason why you couldn't hack up a RISC-V upgrade here
- snvzz 4y ago
  Hopefully we'll get a RISC-V module at some point. RISC-V got strong enough that I am not looking at ARM options anymore.
slondr 4y ago
From the original Reform product page: > We selected their "Nitrogen8M SOM" module for Reform because it is the only available module for which you can download the complete schematics and understand what every component does. There are also a number of community SOM projects for the original which should work with the Pocket, including a raspberry pi CM4, and a Layerscape 1028A
stonogo 4y ago
You're comparing a 5W CPU to an entire SoM that only draws 2W. Just making that switch cuts battery life to a little over an hour in this device. You're also comparing a SiFive product whose documentation is mostly "this document will be updated soon" to a product that comes with complete schematics and all the documentation you could ask for. I don't think you understand the design considerations at play here.

efficax 4y ago

Am I right that it claims a battery life of only 4 hours? Might as well not have a battery at all! I'd take an even less beefy cpu / gpu for a 12 hour battery on a device like this