4 ms·

> That tactic is not a new one; the reason most computer keyboards still have a "Windows logo" key is because, many years ago, Microsoft mandated the presence o

> That tactic is not a new one; the reason most computer keyboards still have a "Windows logo" key is because, many years ago, Microsoft mandated the presence of that key, with that trademarked logo, in its certification standards. Apropos of nothing - save for this comment - is there a reason why Microsoft hasn't switched the primary modifier for keyboard shortcuts to the Windows key? Apple created the Command key to get around having to use Control, long before NeXT and its UNIX roots were even a consideration. Is the only reason a switch hasn't happened down to 40+ years of inertia?

callalex 4y ago
The windows key is used extensively for system-level shortcuts, while ctrl is for application level shortcuts.
- bitwize 4y ago
  That's BS. Control key is for sending control codes. Command key is for issuing commands. We're still dealing with the legacy of Windows 3.x using Ctrl where Apple realized that a special modifier key was needed from the beginning. God, the non-Apple ecosystem is primitive and user-hostile.
  - vkou 4y ago
    > Control key is for sending control codes. > God, the non-Apple ecosystem is primitive and user-hostile. Exactly which Windows users do you think... Send control codes on a regular basis? 'User-hostile' is exactly how I would describe being more concerned about conceptual and behavioural purity for a domain that ~none of the users have cared about for more than 2 decades. (It's also pretty weird to champion Apple, here, when it's taken them how many years to figure out that maybe having a mouse with more than one button is desirable... And I also wonder how people with, say, only one functioning hand were expected to control-click in MacOS. Didn't see a lot of them in Apple commercials, though, perhaps they weren't the target audience...)
    - callalex 4y ago
      Attacking Apple on computing accessibility is, to put it nicely, misguided.
      - vkou 4y ago
        I think it's perfectly appropriate to attack them over a misguided, and even at the time, utterly baffling preference for aesthetics over usability.
  - vel0city 4y ago
    Wouldn't changing something that users were used to for what, >40 years, be the truly user-hostile thing to do? Hey, you've done Ctrl+C/V for your whole life, lets change it just because we call it a control key instead of a command key. What's the real user hostile thing to do today?
vel0city 4y ago
The Windows key has a lot of system level shortcuts already. As callalex mentioned, the Super key is usually for system level shortcuts while the Ctrl key is mostly for application inputs. There's a lot of system level shortcuts. Many of which I use all the time. Win opens the start menu and lets you start typing to search. Win+Tab is the new task switcher UI. Useful for moving apps between desktops. Win+L locks the computer, which I use almost every time I get up from my computer. Win+M/Win+Shift+M minimizes/unminimizes all windows. Win+Home minimizes all but the currently selected window, pressing it again resets it all. Win+, shows the desktop until you release the Win key. Win+E opens a new file explorer window Win+{0,9} opens/switches to the application pinned to the taskbar at that position. Win+Arrow Key maximizes or snaps windows to the top or sides Win+Shift+Arrow moves windows between monitors Win+R opens the Run dialog Win+K opens the Connect tool which helps quickly connect to wireless displays, speakers, and headsets. Win+Shift+S opens the snapshot tool. Win+V opens clipboard history Win+P changes presentation modes, useful for projectors Win+. opens the emoji picker
- chrisfinazzo 4y ago
  That's...certainly more than I recall, having left Windows behind for good in 2009 after using both a Dell Latitude and a 15" MacBook Pro in my last couple years of college. I'm surprised that Win+P isn't "Print" by now. Sure, when you invoke it, you're telling the application to print the contents of window or the document you're looking at, but to some people any application should be able to print. The default macOS application project in Xcode still gives you a print menu item by default and I've even heard stories from people who have gotten rejected from the Mac App Store because they hadn't explicitly removed that item from the menu.
  - vel0city 4y ago
    Just about every application that supports printing in Windows and Linux listens for print as Ctrl+P and has since Windows first came out and super keys didn't exist. Firefox, Edge, Chrome, Notepad++, Visual Studio Code, Outlook, Thunderbird, Word, WordPad, Excel, Powerpoint, OneNote, Paint, Photos, etc. all open their Print dialog when you do Ctrl+P. Why would I need Win+P to do Print when Ctrl+P is practically already the universal shortcut for printing? Meanwhile, when I'm wanting to change my presentation mode for a projector, I'll press Win+P to change from extending my displays to mirroring or have only my local screen or only my remote screen or connect to a wireless display.
cesarb 4y ago
> Is the only reason a switch hasn't happened down to 40+ years of inertia? What you call "inertia" others would call "compatibility". We have 30+ years of muscle memory and working software to keep in mind. The same shortcuts which worked in Windows 3.x should mostly still work on Windows 1x. Apple created the Command key early in their ecosystem's lifetime, so they didn't have as much backwards compatibility to worry about. And even back when the "Windows logo" key was introduced, there were already reasons to not do the change you propose: first, we already had a large amount of Windows 3.x software and users to consider, and second and most importantly, Windows 9x could be used with keyboards without the "Windows logo" key (and they were very common back then). Even today, that's still possible: you can still use a keyboard without both the "Windows logo" key and the "Menu" key, and everything still works perfectly fine. (I do agree that it would better if clipboard shortcuts used something other than Control everywhere, but that ship has long sailed.)

callalex 4y ago

The windows key is used extensively for system-level shortcuts, while ctrl is for application level shortcuts.

bitwize 4y ago
That's BS. Control key is for sending control codes. Command key is for issuing commands. We're still dealing with the legacy of Windows 3.x using Ctrl where Apple realized that a special modifier key was needed from the beginning. God, the non-Apple ecosystem is primitive and user-hostile.
- vkou 4y ago
  > Control key is for sending control codes. > God, the non-Apple ecosystem is primitive and user-hostile. Exactly which Windows users do you think... Send control codes on a regular basis? 'User-hostile' is exactly how I would describe being more concerned about conceptual and behavioural purity for a domain that ~none of the users have cared about for more than 2 decades. (It's also pretty weird to champion Apple, here, when it's taken them how many years to figure out that maybe having a mouse with more than one button is desirable... And I also wonder how people with, say, only one functioning hand were expected to control-click in MacOS. Didn't see a lot of them in Apple commercials, though, perhaps they weren't the target audience...)
  - callalex 4y ago
    Attacking Apple on computing accessibility is, to put it nicely, misguided.
    - vkou 4y ago
      I think it's perfectly appropriate to attack them over a misguided, and even at the time, utterly baffling preference for aesthetics over usability.
- vel0city 4y ago
  Wouldn't changing something that users were used to for what, >40 years, be the truly user-hostile thing to do? Hey, you've done Ctrl+C/V for your whole life, lets change it just because we call it a control key instead of a command key. What's the real user hostile thing to do today?

vel0city 4y ago

The Windows key has a lot of system level shortcuts already. As callalex mentioned, the Super key is usually for system level shortcuts while the Ctrl key is mostly for application inputs. There's a lot of system level shortcuts. Many of which I use all the time. Win opens the start menu and lets you start typing to search. Win+Tab is the new task switcher UI. Useful for moving apps between desktops. Win+L locks the computer, which I use almost every time I get up from my computer. Win+M/Win+Shift+M minimizes/unminimizes all windows. Win+Home minimizes all but the currently selected window, pressing it again resets it all. Win+, shows the desktop until you release the Win key. Win+E opens a new file explorer window Win+{0,9} opens/switches to the application pinned to the taskbar at that position. Win+Arrow Key maximizes or snaps windows to the top or sides Win+Shift+Arrow moves windows between monitors Win+R opens the Run dialog Win+K opens the Connect tool which helps quickly connect to wireless displays, speakers, and headsets. Win+Shift+S opens the snapshot tool. Win+V opens clipboard history Win+P changes presentation modes, useful for projectors Win+. opens the emoji picker

chrisfinazzo 4y ago
That's...certainly more than I recall, having left Windows behind for good in 2009 after using both a Dell Latitude and a 15" MacBook Pro in my last couple years of college. I'm surprised that Win+P isn't "Print" by now. Sure, when you invoke it, you're telling the application to print the contents of window or the document you're looking at, but to some people any application should be able to print. The default macOS application project in Xcode still gives you a print menu item by default and I've even heard stories from people who have gotten rejected from the Mac App Store because they hadn't explicitly removed that item from the menu.
- vel0city 4y ago
  Just about every application that supports printing in Windows and Linux listens for print as Ctrl+P and has since Windows first came out and super keys didn't exist. Firefox, Edge, Chrome, Notepad++, Visual Studio Code, Outlook, Thunderbird, Word, WordPad, Excel, Powerpoint, OneNote, Paint, Photos, etc. all open their Print dialog when you do Ctrl+P. Why would I need Win+P to do Print when Ctrl+P is practically already the universal shortcut for printing? Meanwhile, when I'm wanting to change my presentation mode for a projector, I'll press Win+P to change from extending my displays to mirroring or have only my local screen or only my remote screen or connect to a wireless display.

cesarb 4y ago

> Is the only reason a switch hasn't happened down to 40+ years of inertia? What you call "inertia" others would call "compatibility". We have 30+ years of muscle memory and working software to keep in mind. The same shortcuts which worked in Windows 3.x should mostly still work on Windows 1x. Apple created the Command key early in their ecosystem's lifetime, so they didn't have as much backwards compatibility to worry about. And even back when the "Windows logo" key was introduced, there were already reasons to not do the change you propose: first, we already had a large amount of Windows 3.x software and users to consider, and second and most importantly, Windows 9x could be used with keyboards without the "Windows logo" key (and they were very common back then). Even today, that's still possible: you can still use a keyboard without both the "Windows logo" key and the "Menu" key, and everything still works perfectly fine. (I do agree that it would better if clipboard shortcuts used something other than Control everywhere, but that ship has long sailed.)