6 ms·

No. Only niche skills. Python and basic web dev is becoming common place. Supply given boot camps and lack of credentialism and the ease of learning software de

No. Only niche skills. Python and basic web dev is becoming common place. Supply given boot camps and lack of credentialism and the ease of learning software dev has increased by a lot. These layoffs don't happen in a really hot market.

omginternets 4y ago
Boot camps don’t qualify as supply, they qualify as noise. People who can actually engineer using Python are rare enough that they remain well-paid.
- HervalFreire 4y ago
  They do qualify. Boot camps generate a lot of noise but there is no doubt that out of that noise there are a lot of good candidates that significantly increase supply by a non trivial margin. Not seeing this is denying reality. People who can actually engineer in python is becoming more and more common place.
  - omginternets 4y ago
    >there are a lot of good candidates that significantly increase supply by a non trivial margin There's still a deficit of talent, even in Python. I don't see anyone denying this reality. But to your point, there is a flood of bad candidates.
    - HervalFreire 4y ago
      >But to your point, there is a flood of bad candidates. How would you know did you hire these candidates to find out? Or did you dismiss them as bad because they didn't pass some brain teaser algorithm interview? Those candidates go on to get hired at companies with a lower bar for lower salaries and those lower salaries do influence the market.
      - omginternets 4y ago
        >How would you know did you hire these candidates to find out? Yes. We'll still interview them, but they're usually pretty bad. I'm struggling to remember one who wasn't. The one's we've hired have been disasters.
        HervalFreire 4y ago
        Hold on. Of course you want to avoid terrible candidates. But brain teaser questions and asking gotcha questions about obscure python syntax or something like that isn't a good correlative indicator. You get a bunch of false negatives this way... people who are good but not good at interviews. You have to give them some take home exercise. That's the best way to determine if they're not a false negative. Unfortunately many good devs just don't have the time to do a takehome. Did you hire a candidate who say... didn't know what MRO was, but created a stellar result for a take home project? What I'm saying is that the market is flooded with these false negatives.
        omginternets 4y ago
        >But brain teaser questions and asking gotcha questions about obscure python syntax or something like that isn't a good correlative indicator. Agreed, but that's not how we interview. >Did you hire a candidate who say... didn't know what MRO was, but created a stellar result for a take home project? Do you have me confused with the other guy? >What I'm saying is that the market is flooded with these false negatives. Understood. The market is also flooded with incompetent devs, capable of talking at length about Python syntax (and sometimes even the computational model, e.g. MRO, etc.), but who aren't actually able to put that knowledge to use in engineering systems. These are systematically catastrophic hires, by which I mean, the engineering team is significantly better off hiring no-one, than hiring them. May I ask, why does this seem to matter so much to you? If you are a bootcamp graduate yourself, that doesn't preclude you from being a good engineer. I am more than happy to believe you are the one-in-a-thousand counter-example.
        4y ago
  - sirsinsalot 4y ago
    I hire 10+ Python developers per year. You're wrong. If you yourself are a bad engineer or terrible at hiring, you might mistake the chaff for the wheat, but then you're doomed anyway. I think you're not talking from experience. The same thing happened with JS when that was peaky, and it'll happen in other languages too. What is old is new again.
    - HervalFreire 4y ago
      > I hire 10+ Python developers per year. You're wrong. I've been hiring roughly the same amount for 10 years. I'm actually really extremely good at modern python. My skills with python syntax are so good that I can do in 1 line exclusively with generators what a junior programmer probably needs 10 lines and twice as much mutating state to pull off. My code is also likely more modular and neater then a junior but you have to realize none of this matters that much. My skill level with python is beyond the curve of what is necessary and so is any other developer that goes beyond 2 years with python. In the end every programmer I ever hired exclusively for python will hit this tier within 1 or 2 years, very few exceptions. Roughly half of the junior programmers I hire are actually already within this tier upon getting hired. Literally before hitting there first job. After two years the only thing left to pick up are some more unique patterns and tricks but that's it. I am 100% talking from experience.
      - sirsinsalot 4y ago
        Yes but the same timeline can be done for C, C#, Java or anything else. It isn't unique to Python. "Of what is necessary" is subjective. Regardless of the language or framework I'm hiring within they must have the same level of engineering skill. I've hired people for Python projects who were outstanding Go or Java programmers who never touched Python commercially. My point is the language isn't relevant to your arguments. That's why you're wrong. There's also plenty of Python developers two years in (that I've interviewed and rejected) who couldn't write me a decorator or explain MRO. There's plenty of 2-year Go programmers who can't deal with goroutines well.
        4y ago
whstl 4y ago
The grandparent is clearly not talking about people fresh out of boot camp or doing basic web dev. The job market for junior devs has been cold for ages, with thousands people applying even for low-paying positions. As much as people like to think that developers are just cogs on wheels, companies still want experienced devs (experienced senior and above), and they are still difficult to hire.
- HervalFreire 4y ago
  Many senior devs over the last decade have been created by boot camps. With the recent lay offs the over supply is becoming more apparent. It is now really easy to hire senior python devs. Arguably python is so easy that junior devs aren't that far off from senior devs.
  - alanfranz 4y ago
    Purely Python devs, maybe. Start asking questions about Linux, or networking, or security, you won’t find many that can answer.
    - HervalFreire 4y ago
      This^ is true. Arguably though the majority of web development doesn't involve the stuff you mention. Developers simply work within a framework. This Linux stuff is relegated to specialists... devops or security engineers.
  - sirsinsalot 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - HervalFreire 4y ago
      > As someone who runs a team of Python developers, and has been a professional Python developer for 15+ years, you sound like you don't know what you're talking about. As someone who's done 20 years of professional C++ development along with 15 years of professional python development, as well as 10 years of professional javascript/react development on a systems that go across the stack from the lowest level of sensors and embedded systems to the browser front end I know what I'm talking about. I've also done rust, go, erlang, java, and I've also done a ton of haskell as well as lisp. I've been all over the place likely more than you. >The difference between a junior and senior developer has nothing to do with the language. Regardless of the language the engineering fundamentals are the same. This is beyond wrong. You've done C, you've done rust, then you must know that the fundamentals of systems programming is much more wider ranging then python. What's a pointer? What's a unique pointer or shared pointer? What's move semantics? What's the difference between stack allocation and heap allocation? What's an R value vs. L value? What's a borrowed value? What's virtual memory? What's an interface (arguably with the advent of annotations types are not more relevant in python but there is huge class of senior python programmers who don't use types) The above are programming fundamentals that a python programmer never needs to know. A python programmer can go from junior to principal and not need to KNOW any of the above simply because python abstracts these concepts away from the user. The fact that a python programmer doesn't need to know any of these things makes it significantly easier. For web apps a company is most efficient if they hire a mid level python developer over some principle python developer with 10 years of experience. This is not the case for a language like C++
HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
I'll believe that when salaries start falling.
- HervalFreire 4y ago
  Nobody gets salary cuts. What happens is that devs get laid off then companies hire at lower salaries. This is indeed what is happening right now.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
    That points to a short term behavior. When things get dire, unemployment among devs goes up and salaries start dropping in general. I really don't worry about this stuff until it starts looking like the dot-com bomb again. I survived that, I'll survive this.
  - blsapologist42 4y ago
    Inflation is another way that salaries get cut without officially getting cut.
    - HervalFreire 4y ago
      Makes sense.

omginternets 4y ago

Boot camps don’t qualify as supply, they qualify as noise. People who can actually engineer using Python are rare enough that they remain well-paid.

HervalFreire 4y ago
They do qualify. Boot camps generate a lot of noise but there is no doubt that out of that noise there are a lot of good candidates that significantly increase supply by a non trivial margin. Not seeing this is denying reality. People who can actually engineer in python is becoming more and more common place.
- omginternets 4y ago
  >there are a lot of good candidates that significantly increase supply by a non trivial margin There's still a deficit of talent, even in Python. I don't see anyone denying this reality. But to your point, there is a flood of bad candidates.
  - HervalFreire 4y ago
    >But to your point, there is a flood of bad candidates. How would you know did you hire these candidates to find out? Or did you dismiss them as bad because they didn't pass some brain teaser algorithm interview? Those candidates go on to get hired at companies with a lower bar for lower salaries and those lower salaries do influence the market.
    - omginternets 4y ago
      >How would you know did you hire these candidates to find out? Yes. We'll still interview them, but they're usually pretty bad. I'm struggling to remember one who wasn't. The one's we've hired have been disasters.
      - HervalFreire 4y ago
        Hold on. Of course you want to avoid terrible candidates. But brain teaser questions and asking gotcha questions about obscure python syntax or something like that isn't a good correlative indicator. You get a bunch of false negatives this way... people who are good but not good at interviews. You have to give them some take home exercise. That's the best way to determine if they're not a false negative. Unfortunately many good devs just don't have the time to do a takehome. Did you hire a candidate who say... didn't know what MRO was, but created a stellar result for a take home project? What I'm saying is that the market is flooded with these false negatives.
        omginternets 4y ago
        >But brain teaser questions and asking gotcha questions about obscure python syntax or something like that isn't a good correlative indicator. Agreed, but that's not how we interview. >Did you hire a candidate who say... didn't know what MRO was, but created a stellar result for a take home project? Do you have me confused with the other guy? >What I'm saying is that the market is flooded with these false negatives. Understood. The market is also flooded with incompetent devs, capable of talking at length about Python syntax (and sometimes even the computational model, e.g. MRO, etc.), but who aren't actually able to put that knowledge to use in engineering systems. These are systematically catastrophic hires, by which I mean, the engineering team is significantly better off hiring no-one, than hiring them. May I ask, why does this seem to matter so much to you? If you are a bootcamp graduate yourself, that doesn't preclude you from being a good engineer. I am more than happy to believe you are the one-in-a-thousand counter-example.
        4y ago
- sirsinsalot 4y ago
  I hire 10+ Python developers per year. You're wrong. If you yourself are a bad engineer or terrible at hiring, you might mistake the chaff for the wheat, but then you're doomed anyway. I think you're not talking from experience. The same thing happened with JS when that was peaky, and it'll happen in other languages too. What is old is new again.
  - HervalFreire 4y ago
    > I hire 10+ Python developers per year. You're wrong. I've been hiring roughly the same amount for 10 years. I'm actually really extremely good at modern python. My skills with python syntax are so good that I can do in 1 line exclusively with generators what a junior programmer probably needs 10 lines and twice as much mutating state to pull off. My code is also likely more modular and neater then a junior but you have to realize none of this matters that much. My skill level with python is beyond the curve of what is necessary and so is any other developer that goes beyond 2 years with python. In the end every programmer I ever hired exclusively for python will hit this tier within 1 or 2 years, very few exceptions. Roughly half of the junior programmers I hire are actually already within this tier upon getting hired. Literally before hitting there first job. After two years the only thing left to pick up are some more unique patterns and tricks but that's it. I am 100% talking from experience.
    - sirsinsalot 4y ago
      Yes but the same timeline can be done for C, C#, Java or anything else. It isn't unique to Python. "Of what is necessary" is subjective. Regardless of the language or framework I'm hiring within they must have the same level of engineering skill. I've hired people for Python projects who were outstanding Go or Java programmers who never touched Python commercially. My point is the language isn't relevant to your arguments. That's why you're wrong. There's also plenty of Python developers two years in (that I've interviewed and rejected) who couldn't write me a decorator or explain MRO. There's plenty of 2-year Go programmers who can't deal with goroutines well.
      - 4y ago

whstl 4y ago

The grandparent is clearly not talking about people fresh out of boot camp or doing basic web dev. The job market for junior devs has been cold for ages, with thousands people applying even for low-paying positions. As much as people like to think that developers are just cogs on wheels, companies still want experienced devs (experienced senior and above), and they are still difficult to hire.

HervalFreire 4y ago
Many senior devs over the last decade have been created by boot camps. With the recent lay offs the over supply is becoming more apparent. It is now really easy to hire senior python devs. Arguably python is so easy that junior devs aren't that far off from senior devs.
- alanfranz 4y ago
  Purely Python devs, maybe. Start asking questions about Linux, or networking, or security, you won’t find many that can answer.
  - HervalFreire 4y ago
    This^ is true. Arguably though the majority of web development doesn't involve the stuff you mention. Developers simply work within a framework. This Linux stuff is relegated to specialists... devops or security engineers.
- sirsinsalot 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - HervalFreire 4y ago
    > As someone who runs a team of Python developers, and has been a professional Python developer for 15+ years, you sound like you don't know what you're talking about. As someone who's done 20 years of professional C++ development along with 15 years of professional python development, as well as 10 years of professional javascript/react development on a systems that go across the stack from the lowest level of sensors and embedded systems to the browser front end I know what I'm talking about. I've also done rust, go, erlang, java, and I've also done a ton of haskell as well as lisp. I've been all over the place likely more than you. >The difference between a junior and senior developer has nothing to do with the language. Regardless of the language the engineering fundamentals are the same. This is beyond wrong. You've done C, you've done rust, then you must know that the fundamentals of systems programming is much more wider ranging then python. What's a pointer? What's a unique pointer or shared pointer? What's move semantics? What's the difference between stack allocation and heap allocation? What's an R value vs. L value? What's a borrowed value? What's virtual memory? What's an interface (arguably with the advent of annotations types are not more relevant in python but there is huge class of senior python programmers who don't use types) The above are programming fundamentals that a python programmer never needs to know. A python programmer can go from junior to principal and not need to KNOW any of the above simply because python abstracts these concepts away from the user. The fact that a python programmer doesn't need to know any of these things makes it significantly easier. For web apps a company is most efficient if they hire a mid level python developer over some principle python developer with 10 years of experience. This is not the case for a language like C++

HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago

I'll believe that when salaries start falling.

HervalFreire 4y ago
Nobody gets salary cuts. What happens is that devs get laid off then companies hire at lower salaries. This is indeed what is happening right now.
- HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
  That points to a short term behavior. When things get dire, unemployment among devs goes up and salaries start dropping in general. I really don't worry about this stuff until it starts looking like the dot-com bomb again. I survived that, I'll survive this.
- blsapologist42 4y ago
  Inflation is another way that salaries get cut without officially getting cut.
  - HervalFreire 4y ago
    Makes sense.