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Ownership data meaning the NFT itself and which can be proved by the holder using his/her private key. Off-chain data (such as personal information or supplemen

by ahnick 4y ago

Ownership data meaning the NFT itself and which can be proved by the holder using his/her private key. Off-chain data (such as personal information or supplemental documents) doesn't have to be stored in centralized databases. It could be stored in federated systems, or a local computer at the owner's residence, or a hosted server controlled by the owner. The chain can hold a hash of the identifying information and then an application can pull the data from wherever it is stored and referenced and check that is correct by recomputing the hash and comparing that to what is stored on chain.

illiarian 4y ago
> Off-chain data (such as personal information So actual data that proves that this physical person is the owner of this physical asset. > It could be stored in a, b, c > then an application can pull the data from wherever it is stored Ah yes. Because when it's stored in a non-centralised database of "local computer at owner's residence" or "hosted server controlled by the owner" that data is easily accessible and retrievable.
- ahnick 4y ago
  You can replicate it to multiple sources or use a decentralized storage solution if you are concerned about data availability.
  - illiarian 4y ago
    > You can replicate it to multiple sources Who is this "you" who is going to do that? Remember we were talking about property deeds? Their availability is of great concern. Before you answer that, go back over all your comments here and in other threads, collect all the limitations you've run into, all the workarounds you proposed, all the additional external systems you need to run just the most trivial of scenarios, and riddle me this: why would anyone want this?
Yizahi 4y ago
"federated systems, or a local computer at the owner's residence, or a hosted server controlled by the owner." That's just centralised in a different form. Or more precisely - not decentralised. Sure, some app can interact with centralised DB holding all actual information like deeds or music or whatever. Why do you need NFTs for that? Centralised BD must me utilised to track ownership of actual data or items by real people and it won't work any other way due to the IP rights and complex ownership agreements. NFTs are useless and impotent for this task.
- ahnick 4y ago
  > That's just centralized in a different form. Or more precisely - not decentralized. How many copies of the data in different locations do you need to be considered decentralized? In fact, I'd argue you just care about having enough copies of the off-chain data that you feel well insulated from data loss, so I'm not sure that the off-chain data needs to actually be decentralized. The goal is to have the ownership proof (on-chain NFT) be as decentralized and easily auditable as possible. > Sure, some app can interact with centralised DB holding all actual information like deeds or music or whatever. Why do you need NFTs for that? Centralised BD must me utilised to track ownership of actual data or items by real people and it won't work any other way due to the IP rights and complex ownership agreements. NFTs are useless and impotent for this task. I feel like many of these conversations in this thread are focused on the current state of blockchain adoption today. I don't know of any government today that has adopted a blockchain to track property records at scale, but I do think that will probably come eventually. As soon as that happens, then you can have rules and regulations drafted around all these tertiary concerns including IP rights and complex ownership rights, potentially some of those codified in on-chain contracts, but some would remain as processes for the government or the courts. Putting property deeds in an NFT on a blockchain does not solve all problems that arise with property ownership, but it could improve the record keeping process in some areas.
  - illiarian 4y ago
    > but I do think that will probably come eventually. For it to "come eventually" you need to answer all these questions that you ignore or swat aside as irrelevant, or easily solvable by magic. > As soon as that happens, then you can have rules and regulations drafted around all these tertiary concerns including IP rights and complex ownership rights No. These things have to be solved first. because complex ownership rights exist today, and not in some fantastical future after blockchain has been implemented at scale. > potentially some of those codified in on-chain contracts "On-chain contracts" of course make zero sense even for the most trivial of cases. Much less the complex ones. Because what you propose is replicating human-readable texts with programs in esoteric programming languages that get routinely "hacked" because even multiple audits cannot find vulnerabilities in them. And for what? > Putting property deeds in an NFT on a blockchain does not solve all problems that arise with property ownership, but it could improve the record keeping process in some areas. It "may improve record keeping" but produce an insane amount of complexity, inane and insane workarounds, friction and problems everywhere else. So, will not be implemented until those issues are solved.

by ahnick 4y ago

illiarian 4y ago

> Off-chain data (such as personal information So actual data that proves that this physical person is the owner of this physical asset. > It could be stored in a, b, c > then an application can pull the data from wherever it is stored Ah yes. Because when it's stored in a non-centralised database of "local computer at owner's residence" or "hosted server controlled by the owner" that data is easily accessible and retrievable.

ahnick 4y ago
You can replicate it to multiple sources or use a decentralized storage solution if you are concerned about data availability.
- illiarian 4y ago
  > You can replicate it to multiple sources Who is this "you" who is going to do that? Remember we were talking about property deeds? Their availability is of great concern. Before you answer that, go back over all your comments here and in other threads, collect all the limitations you've run into, all the workarounds you proposed, all the additional external systems you need to run just the most trivial of scenarios, and riddle me this: why would anyone want this?

Yizahi 4y ago

"federated systems, or a local computer at the owner's residence, or a hosted server controlled by the owner." That's just centralised in a different form. Or more precisely - not decentralised. Sure, some app can interact with centralised DB holding all actual information like deeds or music or whatever. Why do you need NFTs for that? Centralised BD must me utilised to track ownership of actual data or items by real people and it won't work any other way due to the IP rights and complex ownership agreements. NFTs are useless and impotent for this task.

ahnick 4y ago
> That's just centralized in a different form. Or more precisely - not decentralized. How many copies of the data in different locations do you need to be considered decentralized? In fact, I'd argue you just care about having enough copies of the off-chain data that you feel well insulated from data loss, so I'm not sure that the off-chain data needs to actually be decentralized. The goal is to have the ownership proof (on-chain NFT) be as decentralized and easily auditable as possible. > Sure, some app can interact with centralised DB holding all actual information like deeds or music or whatever. Why do you need NFTs for that? Centralised BD must me utilised to track ownership of actual data or items by real people and it won't work any other way due to the IP rights and complex ownership agreements. NFTs are useless and impotent for this task. I feel like many of these conversations in this thread are focused on the current state of blockchain adoption today. I don't know of any government today that has adopted a blockchain to track property records at scale, but I do think that will probably come eventually. As soon as that happens, then you can have rules and regulations drafted around all these tertiary concerns including IP rights and complex ownership rights, potentially some of those codified in on-chain contracts, but some would remain as processes for the government or the courts. Putting property deeds in an NFT on a blockchain does not solve all problems that arise with property ownership, but it could improve the record keeping process in some areas.
- illiarian 4y ago
  > but I do think that will probably come eventually. For it to "come eventually" you need to answer all these questions that you ignore or swat aside as irrelevant, or easily solvable by magic. > As soon as that happens, then you can have rules and regulations drafted around all these tertiary concerns including IP rights and complex ownership rights No. These things have to be solved first. because complex ownership rights exist today, and not in some fantastical future after blockchain has been implemented at scale. > potentially some of those codified in on-chain contracts "On-chain contracts" of course make zero sense even for the most trivial of cases. Much less the complex ones. Because what you propose is replicating human-readable texts with programs in esoteric programming languages that get routinely "hacked" because even multiple audits cannot find vulnerabilities in them. And for what? > Putting property deeds in an NFT on a blockchain does not solve all problems that arise with property ownership, but it could improve the record keeping process in some areas. It "may improve record keeping" but produce an insane amount of complexity, inane and insane workarounds, friction and problems everywhere else. So, will not be implemented until those issues are solved.