4 ms·

What Korzybski got wrong about the map and the territory

29 points by vitabenes 4y ago

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
I always liked the Swiss Army take on that: > When the map and the terrain disagree, believe the terrain.
- folli 4y ago
  As one of my commanders (in the Swiss Army) used to say: "Die Karte ist eine Lügnerin." (The map is a liar)
avgcorrection 4y ago
This article takes a koan-like saying and both over-explains it, uses it to draw in all sorts of misc. topics (AI?), and abuses the metaphor (“A map shows you everything at once. The order of events matters on a journey.”).
- lofatdairy 4y ago
  > We talk about wild stuff on this newsletter blog. You won't get mental stimulation like this from today's fifteenth SEO blog post quoting Charlie Munger on "mental models". Hilariously overwrought style aside, I think the actual insight isn't quite so trite. The author seems to be arguing that there's a phenomenological element to the territory, and that the implication of Korzynbski's oft-repeated aphorism is to imply that the territory exists independent to one's experience of it. I'm not too familiar with phenomenology so I could be wrong, but the concepts that the territory in its entirety is both unknowable and that all we have are maps of maps have been played with by other philosophers and aren't limited to phenomenological lines of argument. Maybe the novelty is the specific argument that the territory unfolds before us as we travel "through" it, but honestly I'm not spending anymore time trying to work my way through such a rough draft.
ineptech 4y ago
I don't think the author quite groks the map/territory distinction that Korzybski goes on and on about. > A map shows you everything at once. The order of events matters on a journey. Knowing your way around a place isn't remotely like map-knowledge. Korzybski almost gets this point. Whatever is happening as we represent the flow of sensation in words has a weak and fragile grip on things outside of the mind. Words can only express a tiny slice of what we experience of the world. In other words, he's complaining that a "map" (as in, paper with a drawing of some terrain on it) is a poor and limited stand-in for a "map" (as in mental model of some phenomenon). But that's exactly what Korzybski was saying! All maps are poor and limited, by virtue of being maps, even the one implied by "The map is not the territory" which uses physical terrain maps as a model for models generally. To be fair, Korzybski was prolific and most of his writing is pretty opaque and I don't understand 90% of his output (and I consider myself a huge fan!) so I may be misunderstanding OP's point, or misrepresenting Korzybski's. I'm just adding my two cents' worth because I was very heavily influenced by General Semantics (the parts I can understand) and am always excited to see it discussed.
- superb-owl 4y ago
  I agree with your assessment. OP is aligned with Korzybski, even though he says he’s disagreeing.
- youssefabdelm 4y ago
  I also get the sense that OP has not read enough general semantics to recognize that what seem like "edge cases" not covered by general semantics are actually touched upon frequently across the discipline's key people, at least (seemingly to me) hinted at in many cases if we're only considering Korzybski (e.g. structural differential / idea of layers of abstraction)... but I could be wrong. Maybe OP is trying hard to express a not yet fully formed nuanced and new idea that was sort of at the subconscious level, and we are just struggling to understand.
larsrc 4y ago
What is the author on and where can I get some? Or is it an AI hallucinating? Can we even tell the difference? Are the AIs ready to pass the Stoner Turing test?
probablypower 4y ago
> Korzybski: The map isn't the territory. > This article: The map isn't the experienced territory isn't the territory. This seems over-thought and tautological. It just reinforces to me that Korzybski was wise. The article was also needlessly meandering for my tastes, but I guess some people like "making their way down the trail" of a blogpost.
StrangeATractor 4y ago
Hell of a coincidence, I just bought a bunch of Korzybski. Oddly enough, he's kind of difficult to find nowadays.
- jerrysievert 4y ago
  I was lucky to pick up a second hand copy of Science and Sanity about 25 years ago at Powell's in Portland. sadly, it appears they are now only able to sell the "selections from". the older editions are just beautiful in hardback. amazon appears to have a single copy in stock as of this comment, but I'm afraid most people will end up having to do an "alternate library" search to get a pdf copy of this amazing book.
barathr 4y ago
Chapman had a good, very detailed essay on this topic: https://metarationality.com/maps-and-territory https://metarationality.com/maps-and-territory
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
BLKNSLVR 4y ago
Obligatory link to Borges' story (paragraph) about the map versus the terrain: https://genius.com/Jorge-luis-borges-on-exactitude-in-science-annotated https://genius.com/Jorge-luis-borges-on-exactitude-in-scienc...
sn41 4y ago
Somewhat related: I personally found Korzybski's "General Semantics" approach to be useful when preventing myself from making unsafe generalizations - for example, "This guy is always on a rant about something". The concept of time-binding is very useful in keeping an open mind in meetings so that past events do not color the present interactions unnecessarily. I know that Korzybski is now associated with the dubious NLP movement, but I was curious to know - is he taken seriously outside of NLP?
smitty1e 4y ago
I was not familiar with the source and context, but the phrase is literally true. The global territory is 3D; the map is 2D. Reducing the dimensionality introduces distortion. The map is always a lie. A decent cartographer reduces the lie to a fib. A bad one emits propaganda and enables the worst tyranny. The observation extends to all research. The only model for reality is precisely that: reality itself. This is not an anti-science screed. Rather, a reminder to keep it humble. Purity is for mathematicians.
armitron 4y ago
"Walking out of the woods in the early hours of the night to get a tow cable for your buddy’s stuck truck is an experience that can’t translate into a map. We have contact with reality on a deeper level than the “maps” we use to navigate it consciously." Farcical, Korzybski would have slapped him hard.
draw_down 4y ago
[dead]
bitsinthesky 4y ago
Just scrolling through the article, trying to get a sense of what it's about. I see Territory and Maps (was Korzybski the man who mapped The New World?), it quickly shifts to the Bene Gesserit, and then finishes with stuff on Consciousness. Lots going on :) I thank the comments for a clearer depiction of the article's contents.

29 points by vitabenes 4y ago

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago

I always liked the Swiss Army take on that: > When the map and the terrain disagree, believe the terrain.

folli 4y ago
As one of my commanders (in the Swiss Army) used to say: "Die Karte ist eine Lügnerin." (The map is a liar)

avgcorrection 4y ago

This article takes a koan-like saying and both over-explains it, uses it to draw in all sorts of misc. topics (AI?), and abuses the metaphor (“A map shows you everything at once. The order of events matters on a journey.”).

lofatdairy 4y ago
> We talk about wild stuff on this newsletter blog. You won't get mental stimulation like this from today's fifteenth SEO blog post quoting Charlie Munger on "mental models". Hilariously overwrought style aside, I think the actual insight isn't quite so trite. The author seems to be arguing that there's a phenomenological element to the territory, and that the implication of Korzynbski's oft-repeated aphorism is to imply that the territory exists independent to one's experience of it. I'm not too familiar with phenomenology so I could be wrong, but the concepts that the territory in its entirety is both unknowable and that all we have are maps of maps have been played with by other philosophers and aren't limited to phenomenological lines of argument. Maybe the novelty is the specific argument that the territory unfolds before us as we travel "through" it, but honestly I'm not spending anymore time trying to work my way through such a rough draft.

ineptech 4y ago

I don't think the author quite groks the map/territory distinction that Korzybski goes on and on about. > A map shows you everything at once. The order of events matters on a journey. Knowing your way around a place isn't remotely like map-knowledge. Korzybski almost gets this point. Whatever is happening as we represent the flow of sensation in words has a weak and fragile grip on things outside of the mind. Words can only express a tiny slice of what we experience of the world. In other words, he's complaining that a "map" (as in, paper with a drawing of some terrain on it) is a poor and limited stand-in for a "map" (as in mental model of some phenomenon). But that's exactly what Korzybski was saying! All maps are poor and limited, by virtue of being maps, even the one implied by "The map is not the territory" which uses physical terrain maps as a model for models generally. To be fair, Korzybski was prolific and most of his writing is pretty opaque and I don't understand 90% of his output (and I consider myself a huge fan!) so I may be misunderstanding OP's point, or misrepresenting Korzybski's. I'm just adding my two cents' worth because I was very heavily influenced by General Semantics (the parts I can understand) and am always excited to see it discussed.

superb-owl 4y ago
I agree with your assessment. OP is aligned with Korzybski, even though he says he’s disagreeing.
youssefabdelm 4y ago
I also get the sense that OP has not read enough general semantics to recognize that what seem like "edge cases" not covered by general semantics are actually touched upon frequently across the discipline's key people, at least (seemingly to me) hinted at in many cases if we're only considering Korzybski (e.g. structural differential / idea of layers of abstraction)... but I could be wrong. Maybe OP is trying hard to express a not yet fully formed nuanced and new idea that was sort of at the subconscious level, and we are just struggling to understand.

larsrc 4y ago

What is the author on and where can I get some? Or is it an AI hallucinating? Can we even tell the difference? Are the AIs ready to pass the Stoner Turing test?

probablypower 4y ago

> Korzybski: The map isn't the territory. > This article: The map isn't the experienced territory isn't the territory. This seems over-thought and tautological. It just reinforces to me that Korzybski was wise. The article was also needlessly meandering for my tastes, but I guess some people like "making their way down the trail" of a blogpost.

StrangeATractor 4y ago

Hell of a coincidence, I just bought a bunch of Korzybski. Oddly enough, he's kind of difficult to find nowadays.

jerrysievert 4y ago
I was lucky to pick up a second hand copy of Science and Sanity about 25 years ago at Powell's in Portland. sadly, it appears they are now only able to sell the "selections from". the older editions are just beautiful in hardback. amazon appears to have a single copy in stock as of this comment, but I'm afraid most people will end up having to do an "alternate library" search to get a pdf copy of this amazing book.

barathr 4y ago

Chapman had a good, very detailed essay on this topic: https://metarationality.com/maps-and-territory https://metarationality.com/maps-and-territory

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

BLKNSLVR 4y ago

Obligatory link to Borges' story (paragraph) about the map versus the terrain: https://genius.com/Jorge-luis-borges-on-exactitude-in-science-annotated https://genius.com/Jorge-luis-borges-on-exactitude-in-scienc...

sn41 4y ago

Somewhat related: I personally found Korzybski's "General Semantics" approach to be useful when preventing myself from making unsafe generalizations - for example, "This guy is always on a rant about something". The concept of time-binding is very useful in keeping an open mind in meetings so that past events do not color the present interactions unnecessarily. I know that Korzybski is now associated with the dubious NLP movement, but I was curious to know - is he taken seriously outside of NLP?

smitty1e 4y ago

I was not familiar with the source and context, but the phrase is literally true. The global territory is 3D; the map is 2D. Reducing the dimensionality introduces distortion. The map is always a lie. A decent cartographer reduces the lie to a fib. A bad one emits propaganda and enables the worst tyranny. The observation extends to all research. The only model for reality is precisely that: reality itself. This is not an anti-science screed. Rather, a reminder to keep it humble. Purity is for mathematicians.

armitron 4y ago

"Walking out of the woods in the early hours of the night to get a tow cable for your buddy’s stuck truck is an experience that can’t translate into a map. We have contact with reality on a deeper level than the “maps” we use to navigate it consciously." Farcical, Korzybski would have slapped him hard.

draw_down 4y ago

[dead]

bitsinthesky 4y ago

Just scrolling through the article, trying to get a sense of what it's about. I see Territory and Maps (was Korzybski the man who mapped The New World?), it quickly shifts to the Bene Gesserit, and then finishes with stuff on Consciousness. Lots going on :) I thank the comments for a clearer depiction of the article's contents.