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> Yes. You literally said all the data would be stored somewhere else. Meta data (ownership data) is stored on-chain. (supplemental data is stored off-chain) S

by ahnick 4y ago

> Yes. You literally said all the data would be stored somewhere else. Meta data (ownership data) is stored on-chain. (supplemental data is stored off-chain) So again, no I did not say that all data is stored somewhere else. The meta data that is stored on-chain serves an important role. > If this is no different than any other system, then it has no benefits of any other system. We are talking about the enforceability. Governments can choose to embrace a blockchain as their system of record. If they do, then NFT deeds are as enforceable as traditional property deeds. > Who makes your fantasy tokens referring to physical objects enforceable? Oh right. No one. The government would in this particular case. Maybe in other cases it would be a company and in still other cases it could be an on-chain contract.

Yizahi 4y ago
Ownership data is not stored on chain because it is technically impossible. Chain only knows which wallet owns which URL-hash, and nothing else. Which real life person owns which real life physical or digital off-chain artifact (like deed, or picture, or a key), chain doesn't know and can't know. This info is stored in the centralised DBs managed my centralised entities like a company or government.
- ahnick 4y ago
  Ownership data meaning the NFT itself and which can be proved by the holder using his/her private key. Off-chain data (such as personal information or supplemental documents) doesn't have to be stored in centralized databases. It could be stored in federated systems, or a local computer at the owner's residence, or a hosted server controlled by the owner. The chain can hold a hash of the identifying information and then an application can pull the data from wherever it is stored and referenced and check that is correct by recomputing the hash and comparing that to what is stored on chain.
  - illiarian 4y ago
    > Off-chain data (such as personal information So actual data that proves that this physical person is the owner of this physical asset. > It could be stored in a, b, c > then an application can pull the data from wherever it is stored Ah yes. Because when it's stored in a non-centralised database of "local computer at owner's residence" or "hosted server controlled by the owner" that data is easily accessible and retrievable.
    - ahnick 4y ago
      You can replicate it to multiple sources or use a decentralized storage solution if you are concerned about data availability.
      - illiarian 4y ago
        > You can replicate it to multiple sources Who is this "you" who is going to do that? Remember we were talking about property deeds? Their availability is of great concern. Before you answer that, go back over all your comments here and in other threads, collect all the limitations you've run into, all the workarounds you proposed, all the additional external systems you need to run just the most trivial of scenarios, and riddle me this: why would anyone want this?
  - Yizahi 4y ago
    "federated systems, or a local computer at the owner's residence, or a hosted server controlled by the owner." That's just centralised in a different form. Or more precisely - not decentralised. Sure, some app can interact with centralised DB holding all actual information like deeds or music or whatever. Why do you need NFTs for that? Centralised BD must me utilised to track ownership of actual data or items by real people and it won't work any other way due to the IP rights and complex ownership agreements. NFTs are useless and impotent for this task.
    - ahnick 4y ago
      > That's just centralized in a different form. Or more precisely - not decentralized. How many copies of the data in different locations do you need to be considered decentralized? In fact, I'd argue you just care about having enough copies of the off-chain data that you feel well insulated from data loss, so I'm not sure that the off-chain data needs to actually be decentralized. The goal is to have the ownership proof (on-chain NFT) be as decentralized and easily auditable as possible. > Sure, some app can interact with centralised DB holding all actual information like deeds or music or whatever. Why do you need NFTs for that? Centralised BD must me utilised to track ownership of actual data or items by real people and it won't work any other way due to the IP rights and complex ownership agreements. NFTs are useless and impotent for this task. I feel like many of these conversations in this thread are focused on the current state of blockchain adoption today. I don't know of any government today that has adopted a blockchain to track property records at scale, but I do think that will probably come eventually. As soon as that happens, then you can have rules and regulations drafted around all these tertiary concerns including IP rights and complex ownership rights, potentially some of those codified in on-chain contracts, but some would remain as processes for the government or the courts. Putting property deeds in an NFT on a blockchain does not solve all problems that arise with property ownership, but it could improve the record keeping process in some areas.
      - illiarian 4y ago
        > but I do think that will probably come eventually. For it to "come eventually" you need to answer all these questions that you ignore or swat aside as irrelevant, or easily solvable by magic. > As soon as that happens, then you can have rules and regulations drafted around all these tertiary concerns including IP rights and complex ownership rights No. These things have to be solved first. because complex ownership rights exist today, and not in some fantastical future after blockchain has been implemented at scale. > potentially some of those codified in on-chain contracts "On-chain contracts" of course make zero sense even for the most trivial of cases. Much less the complex ones. Because what you propose is replicating human-readable texts with programs in esoteric programming languages that get routinely "hacked" because even multiple audits cannot find vulnerabilities in them. And for what? > Putting property deeds in an NFT on a blockchain does not solve all problems that arise with property ownership, but it could improve the record keeping process in some areas. It "may improve record keeping" but produce an insane amount of complexity, inane and insane workarounds, friction and problems everywhere else. So, will not be implemented until those issues are solved.
illiarian 4y ago
> So again, no I did not say that all data is stored somewhere else. This is splitting hairs. Actual data that is actually relevant to the property, is stored somewhere else. Which is ironic because elsewhere you stated: "but they no longer need to maintain their own database and IT application." Oh look. They have to maintain their own database for the actual data > The government would in this particular case. Not in this particular case. But in all cases. > Maybe in other cases it would be a company So. You need central entities to verify and enforce rights to physical objects. You need central entities to store the actual data pertaining to objects and people. So the point of blockchain in all this is...?
- ahnick 4y ago
  The blockchain is a piece of additive technology. It doesn't replace existing relational databases, nosql databases, object storage, etc. You can store data in any location you like (doesn't have to be a centralized location) and then verify it's authenticity later by recomputing the hash and comparing that to the hash stored on-chain in the NFT. Also, just because some data is stored off-chain does not mean you need to run your own infra. You could pay a hosting provider to operate it for you. Public permissionless blockchains help in easing the verifiability of ownership records, transfer of ownership records, and auditability of transactions. In the digital goods you don't necessarily have to rely on a single third party like a government. Checkout Chia offer files (https://chialisp.com/offers/ https://chialisp.com/offers/) for an example of this. You can post these offer files on Twitter, forums, text messages, emails, etc.
  - illiarian 4y ago
    > The blockchain is a piece of additive technology. To add it you need to show it produces more value than the problems it causes. > It doesn't replace existing relational databases, nosql databases, object storage, etc. Hm. Strange. In a comment elsewhere you literally claimed this, emphasis mine: "The staff still does what they do today, but they no longer need to maintain their own database and IT application." > Also, just because some data is stored off-chain does not mean you need to run your own infra. And the people will run the infra for you out of the goodness of their hearts? And of course the data that you store "somewhere elsewhere who knows where" will of course be easily available and accessible in perpetuity because blockchain, right? Why is it that most NFTs in the world are now pointing to non-existent files? > Public permissionless blockchains help in easing the verifiability of ownership records, transfer of ownership records, and auditability of transactions. They don't. Moreover, they only work for the most trivial of cases, and make actual real-world scenarios hard or impossible. I've provide several of those, and you answer? "No one is claiming blockchain is helping in that situation and that's okay!" > In the digital goods We're not talking about digital goods.

by ahnick 4y ago

Yizahi 4y ago

Ownership data is not stored on chain because it is technically impossible. Chain only knows which wallet owns which URL-hash, and nothing else. Which real life person owns which real life physical or digital off-chain artifact (like deed, or picture, or a key), chain doesn't know and can't know. This info is stored in the centralised DBs managed my centralised entities like a company or government.

ahnick 4y ago
Ownership data meaning the NFT itself and which can be proved by the holder using his/her private key. Off-chain data (such as personal information or supplemental documents) doesn't have to be stored in centralized databases. It could be stored in federated systems, or a local computer at the owner's residence, or a hosted server controlled by the owner. The chain can hold a hash of the identifying information and then an application can pull the data from wherever it is stored and referenced and check that is correct by recomputing the hash and comparing that to what is stored on chain.
- illiarian 4y ago
  > Off-chain data (such as personal information So actual data that proves that this physical person is the owner of this physical asset. > It could be stored in a, b, c > then an application can pull the data from wherever it is stored Ah yes. Because when it's stored in a non-centralised database of "local computer at owner's residence" or "hosted server controlled by the owner" that data is easily accessible and retrievable.
  - ahnick 4y ago
    You can replicate it to multiple sources or use a decentralized storage solution if you are concerned about data availability.
    - illiarian 4y ago
      > You can replicate it to multiple sources Who is this "you" who is going to do that? Remember we were talking about property deeds? Their availability is of great concern. Before you answer that, go back over all your comments here and in other threads, collect all the limitations you've run into, all the workarounds you proposed, all the additional external systems you need to run just the most trivial of scenarios, and riddle me this: why would anyone want this?
- Yizahi 4y ago
  "federated systems, or a local computer at the owner's residence, or a hosted server controlled by the owner." That's just centralised in a different form. Or more precisely - not decentralised. Sure, some app can interact with centralised DB holding all actual information like deeds or music or whatever. Why do you need NFTs for that? Centralised BD must me utilised to track ownership of actual data or items by real people and it won't work any other way due to the IP rights and complex ownership agreements. NFTs are useless and impotent for this task.
  - ahnick 4y ago
    > That's just centralized in a different form. Or more precisely - not decentralized. How many copies of the data in different locations do you need to be considered decentralized? In fact, I'd argue you just care about having enough copies of the off-chain data that you feel well insulated from data loss, so I'm not sure that the off-chain data needs to actually be decentralized. The goal is to have the ownership proof (on-chain NFT) be as decentralized and easily auditable as possible. > Sure, some app can interact with centralised DB holding all actual information like deeds or music or whatever. Why do you need NFTs for that? Centralised BD must me utilised to track ownership of actual data or items by real people and it won't work any other way due to the IP rights and complex ownership agreements. NFTs are useless and impotent for this task. I feel like many of these conversations in this thread are focused on the current state of blockchain adoption today. I don't know of any government today that has adopted a blockchain to track property records at scale, but I do think that will probably come eventually. As soon as that happens, then you can have rules and regulations drafted around all these tertiary concerns including IP rights and complex ownership rights, potentially some of those codified in on-chain contracts, but some would remain as processes for the government or the courts. Putting property deeds in an NFT on a blockchain does not solve all problems that arise with property ownership, but it could improve the record keeping process in some areas.
    - illiarian 4y ago
      > but I do think that will probably come eventually. For it to "come eventually" you need to answer all these questions that you ignore or swat aside as irrelevant, or easily solvable by magic. > As soon as that happens, then you can have rules and regulations drafted around all these tertiary concerns including IP rights and complex ownership rights No. These things have to be solved first. because complex ownership rights exist today, and not in some fantastical future after blockchain has been implemented at scale. > potentially some of those codified in on-chain contracts "On-chain contracts" of course make zero sense even for the most trivial of cases. Much less the complex ones. Because what you propose is replicating human-readable texts with programs in esoteric programming languages that get routinely "hacked" because even multiple audits cannot find vulnerabilities in them. And for what? > Putting property deeds in an NFT on a blockchain does not solve all problems that arise with property ownership, but it could improve the record keeping process in some areas. It "may improve record keeping" but produce an insane amount of complexity, inane and insane workarounds, friction and problems everywhere else. So, will not be implemented until those issues are solved.

illiarian 4y ago

> So again, no I did not say that all data is stored somewhere else. This is splitting hairs. Actual data that is actually relevant to the property, is stored somewhere else. Which is ironic because elsewhere you stated: "but they no longer need to maintain their own database and IT application." Oh look. They have to maintain their own database for the actual data > The government would in this particular case. Not in this particular case. But in all cases. > Maybe in other cases it would be a company So. You need central entities to verify and enforce rights to physical objects. You need central entities to store the actual data pertaining to objects and people. So the point of blockchain in all this is...?

ahnick 4y ago
The blockchain is a piece of additive technology. It doesn't replace existing relational databases, nosql databases, object storage, etc. You can store data in any location you like (doesn't have to be a centralized location) and then verify it's authenticity later by recomputing the hash and comparing that to the hash stored on-chain in the NFT. Also, just because some data is stored off-chain does not mean you need to run your own infra. You could pay a hosting provider to operate it for you. Public permissionless blockchains help in easing the verifiability of ownership records, transfer of ownership records, and auditability of transactions. In the digital goods you don't necessarily have to rely on a single third party like a government. Checkout Chia offer files (https://chialisp.com/offers/ https://chialisp.com/offers/) for an example of this. You can post these offer files on Twitter, forums, text messages, emails, etc.
- illiarian 4y ago
  > The blockchain is a piece of additive technology. To add it you need to show it produces more value than the problems it causes. > It doesn't replace existing relational databases, nosql databases, object storage, etc. Hm. Strange. In a comment elsewhere you literally claimed this, emphasis mine: "The staff still does what they do today, but they no longer need to maintain their own database and IT application." > Also, just because some data is stored off-chain does not mean you need to run your own infra. And the people will run the infra for you out of the goodness of their hearts? And of course the data that you store "somewhere elsewhere who knows where" will of course be easily available and accessible in perpetuity because blockchain, right? Why is it that most NFTs in the world are now pointing to non-existent files? > Public permissionless blockchains help in easing the verifiability of ownership records, transfer of ownership records, and auditability of transactions. They don't. Moreover, they only work for the most trivial of cases, and make actual real-world scenarios hard or impossible. I've provide several of those, and you answer? "No one is claiming blockchain is helping in that situation and that's okay!" > In the digital goods We're not talking about digital goods.