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No, it's not impossible. You don't need to store all state on chain. You will just need to store a hash of the off-chain data on chain. The supplemental off-cha

by ahnick 4y ago

No, it's not impossible. You don't need to store all state on chain. You will just need to store a hash of the off-chain data on chain. The supplemental off-chain data can be stored in standardized storage systems, which they themselves might be highly distributed and standardized. (e.g. IPFS)

illiarian 4y ago
> You don't need to store all state on chain. You will just need to store a hash of the off-chain data on chain. The supplemental off-chain data can be stored in standardized storage systems It amazes me how people say this with straight face. "Just store all the data off-chain!". Then the chain isn't needed.
- ahnick 4y ago
  I'm not sure how you made that jump in logic. The chain is absolutely needed as it stores and establishes cryptographic proof of ownership. This is the entire premise behind validity rollups for layer 2 networks.
  - illiarian 4y ago
    > I'm not sure how you made that jump in logic. What jump? You literally said that all the data is stored somewhere else. > stores and establishes cryptographic proof of ownership. It stores some unenforceable token that is only valid as long as those who actually enforce ownership agree that it proves anything. So: - all data is stored elsewhere, on centralised servers - proof of ownership is enforced by centralised entities (governments, courts, police, etc.) Great application of blockchains.
    - ahnick 4y ago
      > You literally said that all the data is stored somewhere else. No, I didn't. The NFT would be stored on chain and inside the NFT would be hash of the data that is stored off chain. Anyone can then source the off chain data from any location and then compute the hash of that data and compare it with what is stored on chain. > It stores some unenforceable token that is only valid as long as those who actually enforce ownership agree that it proves anything. This is no different than any other system. What makes that Oracle database that your property assessor uses to store your parcel information in enforceable? Oh yeah, the government.
      - illiarian 4y ago
        > > You literally said that all the data is stored somewhere else. > No, I didn't... NFT would be hash of the data that is stored off chain. Yes. You literally said all the data would be stored somewhere else. > This is no different than any other system. If this is no different than any other system, then it has no benefits of any other system. > What makes that Oracle database that your property assessor uses to store your parcel information in enforceable? Oh yeah, the government. Indeed, the government. Who makes your fantasy tokens referring to physical objects enforceable? Oh right. No one.
        ahnick 4y ago
        > Yes. You literally said all the data would be stored somewhere else. Meta data (ownership data) is stored on-chain. (supplemental data is stored off-chain) So again, no I did not say that all data is stored somewhere else. The meta data that is stored on-chain serves an important role. > If this is no different than any other system, then it has no benefits of any other system. We are talking about the enforceability. Governments can choose to embrace a blockchain as their system of record. If they do, then NFT deeds are as enforceable as traditional property deeds. > Who makes your fantasy tokens referring to physical objects enforceable? Oh right. No one. The government would in this particular case. Maybe in other cases it would be a company and in still other cases it could be an on-chain contract.
        Yizahi 4y ago
        Ownership data is not stored on chain because it is technically impossible. Chain only knows which wallet owns which URL-hash, and nothing else. Which real life person owns which real life physical or digital off-chain artifact (like deed, or picture, or a key), chain doesn't know and can't know. This info is stored in the centralised DBs managed my centralised entities like a company or government.
        ahnick 4y ago
        Ownership data meaning the NFT itself and which can be proved by the holder using his/her private key. Off-chain data (such as personal information or supplemental documents) doesn't have to be stored in centralized databases. It could be stored in federated systems, or a local computer at the owner's residence, or a hosted server controlled by the owner. The chain can hold a hash of the identifying information and then an application can pull the data from wherever it is stored and referenced and check that is correct by recomputing the hash and comparing that to what is stored on chain.
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    > as it stores and establishes cryptographic proof of ownership. But if the entity that is charged with keeping track of who owns what needs to keep a central database anyway, what value does keeping the ownership records elsewhere bring? I see doing that as accomplishing nothing but increasing the number of things that can go wrong. When it comes to things like real estate, the "proof of ownership" is completely without meaning unless you also have the extra data beyond that. Things like where the land is, what the boundaries of the property are, etc.
Yizahi 4y ago
The hash literally changes nothing except for maybe verifying integrity of the data, and that is debatable. Add hash in the examples above and literally nothing will change. You can't just throw technojargon term at everything and see where it sticks.
- ahnick 4y ago
  The hash is critical as it is what enables you to verify that the off-chain data is correct. What exactly did you think was technojargon? I'll be happy to elaborate.
  - popcalc 4y ago
    Why not just check the off-chain database and sidestep the hash stuff in the first place? If the off-chain data is "incorrect", what are you going to do? Can anybody mint those NFTs? What's the point then? The government is the only one who can kick you out of that house irl.
    - ahnick 4y ago
      Since the on-chain hash is part of an immutable object that no one can change, then anyone can use it to verify that the off-chain data is valid at anytime. (No one needs to go ask someone else whether it is valid they can check for themselves) If the off-chain data was found to be invalid, then a correct version of that off-chain data would need to be provided or a process would have to be developed that would handle exceptions where the document is no longer available and now a new NFT would need to be minted. The minting process could be managed by the government or some entity using an on-chain contract or it could just be a manual process that the government does in conjunction with banks. The enforcement of the ownership records would still be held with the government. The point of having property records as NFT on-chain data is it enables easy to verify ownership of property records, transparency/auditability of property records, and easy transfers of property records to new owners.
      - JohnFen 4y ago

by ahnick 4y ago

illiarian 4y ago

> You don't need to store all state on chain. You will just need to store a hash of the off-chain data on chain. The supplemental off-chain data can be stored in standardized storage systems It amazes me how people say this with straight face. "Just store all the data off-chain!". Then the chain isn't needed.

ahnick 4y ago
I'm not sure how you made that jump in logic. The chain is absolutely needed as it stores and establishes cryptographic proof of ownership. This is the entire premise behind validity rollups for layer 2 networks.
- illiarian 4y ago
  > I'm not sure how you made that jump in logic. What jump? You literally said that all the data is stored somewhere else. > stores and establishes cryptographic proof of ownership. It stores some unenforceable token that is only valid as long as those who actually enforce ownership agree that it proves anything. So: - all data is stored elsewhere, on centralised servers - proof of ownership is enforced by centralised entities (governments, courts, police, etc.) Great application of blockchains.
  - ahnick 4y ago
    > You literally said that all the data is stored somewhere else. No, I didn't. The NFT would be stored on chain and inside the NFT would be hash of the data that is stored off chain. Anyone can then source the off chain data from any location and then compute the hash of that data and compare it with what is stored on chain. > It stores some unenforceable token that is only valid as long as those who actually enforce ownership agree that it proves anything. This is no different than any other system. What makes that Oracle database that your property assessor uses to store your parcel information in enforceable? Oh yeah, the government.
    - illiarian 4y ago
      > > You literally said that all the data is stored somewhere else. > No, I didn't... NFT would be hash of the data that is stored off chain. Yes. You literally said all the data would be stored somewhere else. > This is no different than any other system. If this is no different than any other system, then it has no benefits of any other system. > What makes that Oracle database that your property assessor uses to store your parcel information in enforceable? Oh yeah, the government. Indeed, the government. Who makes your fantasy tokens referring to physical objects enforceable? Oh right. No one.
      - ahnick 4y ago
        > Yes. You literally said all the data would be stored somewhere else. Meta data (ownership data) is stored on-chain. (supplemental data is stored off-chain) So again, no I did not say that all data is stored somewhere else. The meta data that is stored on-chain serves an important role. > If this is no different than any other system, then it has no benefits of any other system. We are talking about the enforceability. Governments can choose to embrace a blockchain as their system of record. If they do, then NFT deeds are as enforceable as traditional property deeds. > Who makes your fantasy tokens referring to physical objects enforceable? Oh right. No one. The government would in this particular case. Maybe in other cases it would be a company and in still other cases it could be an on-chain contract.
        Yizahi 4y ago
        Ownership data is not stored on chain because it is technically impossible. Chain only knows which wallet owns which URL-hash, and nothing else. Which real life person owns which real life physical or digital off-chain artifact (like deed, or picture, or a key), chain doesn't know and can't know. This info is stored in the centralised DBs managed my centralised entities like a company or government.
        ahnick 4y ago
        Ownership data meaning the NFT itself and which can be proved by the holder using his/her private key. Off-chain data (such as personal information or supplemental documents) doesn't have to be stored in centralized databases. It could be stored in federated systems, or a local computer at the owner's residence, or a hosted server controlled by the owner. The chain can hold a hash of the identifying information and then an application can pull the data from wherever it is stored and referenced and check that is correct by recomputing the hash and comparing that to what is stored on chain.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  > as it stores and establishes cryptographic proof of ownership. But if the entity that is charged with keeping track of who owns what needs to keep a central database anyway, what value does keeping the ownership records elsewhere bring? I see doing that as accomplishing nothing but increasing the number of things that can go wrong. When it comes to things like real estate, the "proof of ownership" is completely without meaning unless you also have the extra data beyond that. Things like where the land is, what the boundaries of the property are, etc.

Yizahi 4y ago

The hash literally changes nothing except for maybe verifying integrity of the data, and that is debatable. Add hash in the examples above and literally nothing will change. You can't just throw technojargon term at everything and see where it sticks.

ahnick 4y ago
The hash is critical as it is what enables you to verify that the off-chain data is correct. What exactly did you think was technojargon? I'll be happy to elaborate.
- popcalc 4y ago
  Why not just check the off-chain database and sidestep the hash stuff in the first place? If the off-chain data is "incorrect", what are you going to do? Can anybody mint those NFTs? What's the point then? The government is the only one who can kick you out of that house irl.
  - ahnick 4y ago
    Since the on-chain hash is part of an immutable object that no one can change, then anyone can use it to verify that the off-chain data is valid at anytime. (No one needs to go ask someone else whether it is valid they can check for themselves) If the off-chain data was found to be invalid, then a correct version of that off-chain data would need to be provided or a process would have to be developed that would handle exceptions where the document is no longer available and now a new NFT would need to be minted. The minting process could be managed by the government or some entity using an on-chain contract or it could just be a manual process that the government does in conjunction with banks. The enforcement of the ownership records would still be held with the government. The point of having property records as NFT on-chain data is it enables easy to verify ownership of property records, transparency/auditability of property records, and easy transfers of property records to new owners.
    - JohnFen 4y ago