5 ms·

How would you design an HA system that has literally 0 downtime and accessible from anywhere in the world that people can cryptographically prove ownership of a

by ahnick 4y ago

How would you design an HA system that has literally 0 downtime and accessible from anywhere in the world that people can cryptographically prove ownership of a property? How would you prevent DDoS attacks of that system? Further, how would you keep costs low enough that a typical small city or township could afford said HA property system? What value is the property deed? The house has the value - what's the property deed worth? If you have the property deed, are you the house owner?

illiarian 4y ago
> If you have the property deed, are you the house owner? That's a great question. Riddle me this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27212564 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27212564
- ahnick 4y ago
  I'm not sure what you think that proves? Government corruption has and will always exist. If anything, a public blockchain will make manipulation of property records more easily detectable.
  - illiarian 4y ago
    > I'm not sure what you think that proves? Your question was, quote, "If you have the property deed, are you the house owner?" I gave you an example of a property deed, and issues that could arise around that property deed. Now, how exactly will blockchain help in the cases I described?
    - ahnick 4y ago
      My original question illustrates that an NFT deed is interchangeable with a property deed. Public blockchains can help expose manipulations of property records because the history of record transactions are available for anyone to check. You don't get that with closed centralized property systems.
      - illiarian 4y ago
        > My original question illustrates that an NFT deed is interchangeable with a property deed. It's not. NFTs are non-enforceable. > Public blockchains can help expose manipulations of property records No they can't. I literally provided you with examples.
        ahnick 4y ago
        > It's not. NFTs are non-enforceable. They are as non-enforceable as property deeds. (i.e. property deed enforce-ability relies on the government too) > No they can't. I literally provided you with examples. They absolutely can. If someone modifies the NFT on the blockchain you will see exactly when and by whom it was modified. This could be provided as evidence in court.
        illiarian 4y ago
        > They are as non-enforceable as property deeds. (i.e. property deed enforce-ability relies on the government too) Translation: government enforces property deeds. They are enfoceable. NFTs are not > If someone modifies the NFT on the blockchain The question isn't about modifying the NFT is it. Go and re-read the cases I provided. Edit: What amazes me about all the cryptobros is their inability to look beyond the simplest of the most simplest of the most trivial of cases. Probably because of their childlike belief in the magic of blockchain.
        ahnick 4y ago
        > Translation: government enforces property deeds. They are enfoceable. > NFTs are not How did property deeds come into existence? Was there a time before property deeds? The point is technology evolves and blockchains offer an alternative to record keeping that is an improvement over existing systems. If governments adopt them for tracking property ownership, then they will be just as enforceable as property deeds. > The question isn't about modifying the NFT is it. Go and re-read the cases I provided. The point is the on-chain historical record of transactions can be provided as evidence to a court. A blockchain will not prevent corruption and bribery from arising, but it does represent an unalterable record of transactions. Ultimately courts are the enforceability layer of the government, but that does not make blockchains useless for the purposes of property record keeping. > Edit: What amazes me about all the cryptobros is their inability to look beyond the simplest of the most simplest of the most trivial of cases. Probably because of their childlike belief in the magic of blockchain. This seems like your inner bias coming out. There is certainly no shortage of grift in the crypto space. Nevertheless, the technology is real and there are people with PhDs in CompSci and vast amounts of distributed network experience working in the space. I'd invite you to try and look at the technology objectively, because there are some really exciting and cool things happening in the space.
tallanvor 4y ago
Who needs deed information to be available 24/7/365? Why does there need to be a central system that is at risk of DDoS attacks? Why would a city/town/county pay for a system that isn't needed?
- ahnick 4y ago
  I think pretty much anyone would like systems to be available as much as possible, no? Any website (which nowadays most property assessors have sites) is vulnerable to DDoS attacks and even worse would be ransomware attacks. The system would be an improvement over their existing system and would likely be cheaper. Most city/town/county would pay for such a system as TCO is important to them.
  - tallanvor 4y ago
    I doubt that many people particularly care if property records are available 24/7, or are demanding the ability to update records outside of business hours. Individual pieces of property aren't bought and sold frequently enough to need to be able to be done instantaneously or at any time. Governments have a vested interest in being able to verify that transactions are legal and that identities are known so as to be able collect taxes. Ransomware or other attacks are always going to be a risk, and the more municipalities that use a single system, the bigger a target it becomes, so smaller but properly secured and backed up systems have advantages.
    - ahnick 4y ago
      > I doubt that many people particularly care if property records are available 24/7, or are demanding the ability to update records outside of business hours. Individual pieces of property aren't bought and sold frequently enough to need to be able to be done instantaneously or at any time. Governments have a vested interest in being able to verify that transactions are legal and that identities are known so as to be able collect taxes. Cryptographic signatures paired with identity information makes all transactions easily verifiable for tax collection purposes. There are purposes such as proving ownership of a record anytime someone needs to that would be convenient if the records are accessible 24/7. > Ransomware or other attacks are always going to be a risk, and the more municipalities that use a single system, the bigger a target it becomes, so smaller but properly secured and backed up systems have advantages. If the past is any indication, local governments and small businesses have had a heck of time securing their IT systems. I would much prefer a hardened blockchain system to secure my property ownership record, than the current situation.
atoav 4y ago
> How would you design an HA system that has literally 0 downtime When you ask a question like that I can't help but asking back: How would you design any system that has "literally 0 downtime" and why do you think it is only possible to achive it using a blockchain? As for the second part: proving some digital data is originating from someone is what we have been doing using cryptographic signatures for quite a while now. How to do so in a stable fashion that resists changes to the original data e.g. editing, cropping, color-manipulation, pitch shifting, etc is the challenge. This is called fingerprinting. To proove ownership of a material you just need a list of fingerprints and a reference to the entity that owns the rights. How to do reliable databases is a problem that we sort of know how to deal with in 2023. The question is, why would you need a blockchain for that problem? The hard part is not trusting the entity that stores the data, the hard part is trusting the data that is entered into that database. And for this kind of problem the best construction we have found so far is dedicating some institution to that purpose and have copyright-holders proove their ownership of their data to that institution. But if you have an institution that you already need to trust with data entry you can also trust them with data storage or not? Not sure how a blockchain helps when some guy claims the song I have written on another blockchain. In the end it will be governments who will have to recognize my ownership so I can sue and by that point you can safe yourself the trouble of using a blockchain in the first place.
- ahnick 4y ago
  Blockchains are highly distributed systems. At least the good ones are ;-). Blockchains have the ultimate uptime b/c every full node has a copy of the database that houses the state and in large blockchain networks (e.g. Bitcoin, Ethereum, Chia) there is always a node available. It's definitely possible to build other HA systems that are not blockchains, but even spending top dollar for 99.99% availability you probably can't approach the uptime of a one of these blockchain networks and especially if you are running your own infra and not doing it on a public cloud provider. Blockchains are great for proving ownership because you can provide a signature for verification and then that can be cross-referenced to see if that same signature also owns the on-chain data. There is no getting around the fact that the government chooses the system of record and property owners have to abide that choice. If the government though chose to use a blockchain as the system of record (for all the benefits I listed previously), then you don't need to worry about other blockchains, because that's not the one the government cares about.
UncleEntity 4y ago
> What value is the property deed? Its value is that it is proof of ownership certified by whichever county officer has the job to do these things. > The house has the value - what's the property deed worth? Literally nothing since anyone can show up at the county office and get a copy. They don’t even ask for ID because it’s a public record. > If you have the property deed, are you the house owner? No, the property deed is an official record of the property owner. With the deed you can prove you own the property but even that isn’t ironclad which is the whole reason there’s a title insurance industry. Which, and I’ll give you this one, could be the only valid reason for “blockchain” in this whole argument but would require having every historic property transaction already on chain or you’d just be where we are today.
automatic6131 4y ago
Create a stanardised piece of FOSS software that can be hosted in (who cares, azure|aws|heroku), a small city then just needs to pay the hosting fees and digitise their records. Now it's as good as 0 downtime for the real world, certainly not even blockchains have 0 downtime. And you don't have the issues of gas wars either. Oh, the real hard problems are creating the standardised representation of a property deed and getting everyone to use it. Something not at all addressed by use of blockchain! >Cryptographically prove ownership of a property literally no one is asking for this except the sellers of cryptographic proof.
- ahnick 4y ago
  Just because you host on AWS doesn't mean you get 0 downtime. AWS regions do go down occasionally. Compare that to a hundred thousand node globally distributed network -> https://dashboard.chia.net/d/em15uQ47k/peer-info?orgId=1 https://dashboard.chia.net/d/em15uQ47k/peer-info?orgId=1 > Oh, the real hard problems are creating the standardised representation of a property deed and getting everyone to use it. Something not at all addressed by use of blockchain! And Oracle databases addressed this? Standardizing property deeds is more of an application level concern not core blockchain infra. >Cryptographically prove ownership of a property literally no one is asking for this except the sellers of cryptographic proof. A good UI/UX would make this a push button capability from a wallet. No need for the general public to understand the technology powering push button verification. :)
  - automatic6131 4y ago
    >Standardizing property deeds is more of an application level concern not core blockchain infra. You claimed it as a benefit! There's no reason that NFTs for property deeds would: Be standardised, or be on the same chain. That's more an application level concern, so please take that point back. >Just because you host on AWS doesn't mean you get 0 downtime. You get as near to 0 downtime as anyone needs for transacting property. Also, still no one is asking for cryptographic proof of property ownership, even if you make it a single button push. No one needs it now, what does it add? Why is what we have now in need of cryptographic verification? Crypto boosters want it because they're selling it, directly or indirectly. You have not answered this question.

by ahnick 4y ago

illiarian 4y ago

> If you have the property deed, are you the house owner? That's a great question. Riddle me this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27212564 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27212564

ahnick 4y ago
I'm not sure what you think that proves? Government corruption has and will always exist. If anything, a public blockchain will make manipulation of property records more easily detectable.
- illiarian 4y ago
  > I'm not sure what you think that proves? Your question was, quote, "If you have the property deed, are you the house owner?" I gave you an example of a property deed, and issues that could arise around that property deed. Now, how exactly will blockchain help in the cases I described?
  - ahnick 4y ago
    My original question illustrates that an NFT deed is interchangeable with a property deed. Public blockchains can help expose manipulations of property records because the history of record transactions are available for anyone to check. You don't get that with closed centralized property systems.
    - illiarian 4y ago
      > My original question illustrates that an NFT deed is interchangeable with a property deed. It's not. NFTs are non-enforceable. > Public blockchains can help expose manipulations of property records No they can't. I literally provided you with examples.
      - ahnick 4y ago
        > It's not. NFTs are non-enforceable. They are as non-enforceable as property deeds. (i.e. property deed enforce-ability relies on the government too) > No they can't. I literally provided you with examples. They absolutely can. If someone modifies the NFT on the blockchain you will see exactly when and by whom it was modified. This could be provided as evidence in court.
        illiarian 4y ago
        > They are as non-enforceable as property deeds. (i.e. property deed enforce-ability relies on the government too) Translation: government enforces property deeds. They are enfoceable. NFTs are not > If someone modifies the NFT on the blockchain The question isn't about modifying the NFT is it. Go and re-read the cases I provided. Edit: What amazes me about all the cryptobros is their inability to look beyond the simplest of the most simplest of the most trivial of cases. Probably because of their childlike belief in the magic of blockchain.
        ahnick 4y ago
        > Translation: government enforces property deeds. They are enfoceable. > NFTs are not How did property deeds come into existence? Was there a time before property deeds? The point is technology evolves and blockchains offer an alternative to record keeping that is an improvement over existing systems. If governments adopt them for tracking property ownership, then they will be just as enforceable as property deeds. > The question isn't about modifying the NFT is it. Go and re-read the cases I provided. The point is the on-chain historical record of transactions can be provided as evidence to a court. A blockchain will not prevent corruption and bribery from arising, but it does represent an unalterable record of transactions. Ultimately courts are the enforceability layer of the government, but that does not make blockchains useless for the purposes of property record keeping. > Edit: What amazes me about all the cryptobros is their inability to look beyond the simplest of the most simplest of the most trivial of cases. Probably because of their childlike belief in the magic of blockchain. This seems like your inner bias coming out. There is certainly no shortage of grift in the crypto space. Nevertheless, the technology is real and there are people with PhDs in CompSci and vast amounts of distributed network experience working in the space. I'd invite you to try and look at the technology objectively, because there are some really exciting and cool things happening in the space.

tallanvor 4y ago

Who needs deed information to be available 24/7/365? Why does there need to be a central system that is at risk of DDoS attacks? Why would a city/town/county pay for a system that isn't needed?

ahnick 4y ago
I think pretty much anyone would like systems to be available as much as possible, no? Any website (which nowadays most property assessors have sites) is vulnerable to DDoS attacks and even worse would be ransomware attacks. The system would be an improvement over their existing system and would likely be cheaper. Most city/town/county would pay for such a system as TCO is important to them.
- tallanvor 4y ago
  I doubt that many people particularly care if property records are available 24/7, or are demanding the ability to update records outside of business hours. Individual pieces of property aren't bought and sold frequently enough to need to be able to be done instantaneously or at any time. Governments have a vested interest in being able to verify that transactions are legal and that identities are known so as to be able collect taxes. Ransomware or other attacks are always going to be a risk, and the more municipalities that use a single system, the bigger a target it becomes, so smaller but properly secured and backed up systems have advantages.
  - ahnick 4y ago
    > I doubt that many people particularly care if property records are available 24/7, or are demanding the ability to update records outside of business hours. Individual pieces of property aren't bought and sold frequently enough to need to be able to be done instantaneously or at any time. Governments have a vested interest in being able to verify that transactions are legal and that identities are known so as to be able collect taxes. Cryptographic signatures paired with identity information makes all transactions easily verifiable for tax collection purposes. There are purposes such as proving ownership of a record anytime someone needs to that would be convenient if the records are accessible 24/7. > Ransomware or other attacks are always going to be a risk, and the more municipalities that use a single system, the bigger a target it becomes, so smaller but properly secured and backed up systems have advantages. If the past is any indication, local governments and small businesses have had a heck of time securing their IT systems. I would much prefer a hardened blockchain system to secure my property ownership record, than the current situation.

atoav 4y ago

> How would you design an HA system that has literally 0 downtime When you ask a question like that I can't help but asking back: How would you design any system that has "literally 0 downtime" and why do you think it is only possible to achive it using a blockchain? As for the second part: proving some digital data is originating from someone is what we have been doing using cryptographic signatures for quite a while now. How to do so in a stable fashion that resists changes to the original data e.g. editing, cropping, color-manipulation, pitch shifting, etc is the challenge. This is called fingerprinting. To proove ownership of a material you just need a list of fingerprints and a reference to the entity that owns the rights. How to do reliable databases is a problem that we sort of know how to deal with in 2023. The question is, why would you need a blockchain for that problem? The hard part is not trusting the entity that stores the data, the hard part is trusting the data that is entered into that database. And for this kind of problem the best construction we have found so far is dedicating some institution to that purpose and have copyright-holders proove their ownership of their data to that institution. But if you have an institution that you already need to trust with data entry you can also trust them with data storage or not? Not sure how a blockchain helps when some guy claims the song I have written on another blockchain. In the end it will be governments who will have to recognize my ownership so I can sue and by that point you can safe yourself the trouble of using a blockchain in the first place.

ahnick 4y ago
Blockchains are highly distributed systems. At least the good ones are ;-). Blockchains have the ultimate uptime b/c every full node has a copy of the database that houses the state and in large blockchain networks (e.g. Bitcoin, Ethereum, Chia) there is always a node available. It's definitely possible to build other HA systems that are not blockchains, but even spending top dollar for 99.99% availability you probably can't approach the uptime of a one of these blockchain networks and especially if you are running your own infra and not doing it on a public cloud provider. Blockchains are great for proving ownership because you can provide a signature for verification and then that can be cross-referenced to see if that same signature also owns the on-chain data. There is no getting around the fact that the government chooses the system of record and property owners have to abide that choice. If the government though chose to use a blockchain as the system of record (for all the benefits I listed previously), then you don't need to worry about other blockchains, because that's not the one the government cares about.

UncleEntity 4y ago

> What value is the property deed? Its value is that it is proof of ownership certified by whichever county officer has the job to do these things. > The house has the value - what's the property deed worth? Literally nothing since anyone can show up at the county office and get a copy. They don’t even ask for ID because it’s a public record. > If you have the property deed, are you the house owner? No, the property deed is an official record of the property owner. With the deed you can prove you own the property but even that isn’t ironclad which is the whole reason there’s a title insurance industry. Which, and I’ll give you this one, could be the only valid reason for “blockchain” in this whole argument but would require having every historic property transaction already on chain or you’d just be where we are today.

automatic6131 4y ago

Create a stanardised piece of FOSS software that can be hosted in (who cares, azure|aws|heroku), a small city then just needs to pay the hosting fees and digitise their records. Now it's as good as 0 downtime for the real world, certainly not even blockchains have 0 downtime. And you don't have the issues of gas wars either. Oh, the real hard problems are creating the standardised representation of a property deed and getting everyone to use it. Something not at all addressed by use of blockchain! >Cryptographically prove ownership of a property literally no one is asking for this except the sellers of cryptographic proof.

ahnick 4y ago
Just because you host on AWS doesn't mean you get 0 downtime. AWS regions do go down occasionally. Compare that to a hundred thousand node globally distributed network -> https://dashboard.chia.net/d/em15uQ47k/peer-info?orgId=1 https://dashboard.chia.net/d/em15uQ47k/peer-info?orgId=1 > Oh, the real hard problems are creating the standardised representation of a property deed and getting everyone to use it. Something not at all addressed by use of blockchain! And Oracle databases addressed this? Standardizing property deeds is more of an application level concern not core blockchain infra. >Cryptographically prove ownership of a property literally no one is asking for this except the sellers of cryptographic proof. A good UI/UX would make this a push button capability from a wallet. No need for the general public to understand the technology powering push button verification. :)
- automatic6131 4y ago
  >Standardizing property deeds is more of an application level concern not core blockchain infra. You claimed it as a benefit! There's no reason that NFTs for property deeds would: Be standardised, or be on the same chain. That's more an application level concern, so please take that point back. >Just because you host on AWS doesn't mean you get 0 downtime. You get as near to 0 downtime as anyone needs for transacting property. Also, still no one is asking for cryptographic proof of property ownership, even if you make it a single button push. No one needs it now, what does it add? Why is what we have now in need of cryptographic verification? Crypto boosters want it because they're selling it, directly or indirectly. You have not answered this question.