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This is impossible. Basically you MUST have a centralised DB at the municipality storing all the data at before (because it is impossible to do so on chain, due

by Yizahi 4y ago

This is impossible. Basically you MUST have a centralised DB at the municipality storing all the data at before (because it is impossible to do so on chain, due to chain tech limitations). Plus you have a useless NFT chain on the side, where NFTs are primitive URLs to the centralised DB (CDB). Even more - they are one way links. So that CDB doesn't know anything about blockchain state and NFTs. Next problem - no person owns NFTs, they are owned by wallets. Therefore these wallet must be deanonimised and registered at the municipality and in the CDB, so that there is at least one place to show who owns a deed. Now some potential scenarios: 1. A sells deed to B. So now they do in on chain and NFT is sold from wallet X to Y. All of that is registered in the CDB and confirmed with paper documents, contracts and stuff. Maaaybe that can work, but as we see NFTs are useless fifth leg in a horse here. 2. Inheritance. Deed is inherited by law by person C (with or wihtout wallet Z), but chain doesn't know about it and thinks wallet X still owns NFT. CDB has actual data and overrides "wallet X" line, so that chain now useless and outdated. 3. Law enforces deed transfer from A to B. Again, NFT is not sold and chain is not updated. The list of situations can go on and on. And last note - these so called "dapps", which are neither smart nor contracts, are the most stupidly delusional thing you can introduce into a valuable commodities market. Only people not familiar with the scale and rate of exploits caused by usage of these dumb and badly designed programs can suggest it. Or the one profiteering from this. Phishing is over the top and even experienced users at r/CC are regularly losing everything due to a single click mistakes. This is not how housing market worked and will work. Not how any market works actually.

ahnick 4y ago
No, it's not impossible. You don't need to store all state on chain. You will just need to store a hash of the off-chain data on chain. The supplemental off-chain data can be stored in standardized storage systems, which they themselves might be highly distributed and standardized. (e.g. IPFS)
- illiarian 4y ago
  > You don't need to store all state on chain. You will just need to store a hash of the off-chain data on chain. The supplemental off-chain data can be stored in standardized storage systems It amazes me how people say this with straight face. "Just store all the data off-chain!". Then the chain isn't needed.
  - ahnick 4y ago
    I'm not sure how you made that jump in logic. The chain is absolutely needed as it stores and establishes cryptographic proof of ownership. This is the entire premise behind validity rollups for layer 2 networks.
    - illiarian 4y ago
      > I'm not sure how you made that jump in logic. What jump? You literally said that all the data is stored somewhere else. > stores and establishes cryptographic proof of ownership. It stores some unenforceable token that is only valid as long as those who actually enforce ownership agree that it proves anything. So: - all data is stored elsewhere, on centralised servers - proof of ownership is enforced by centralised entities (governments, courts, police, etc.) Great application of blockchains.
      - ahnick 4y ago
        > You literally said that all the data is stored somewhere else. No, I didn't. The NFT would be stored on chain and inside the NFT would be hash of the data that is stored off chain. Anyone can then source the off chain data from any location and then compute the hash of that data and compare it with what is stored on chain. > It stores some unenforceable token that is only valid as long as those who actually enforce ownership agree that it proves anything. This is no different than any other system. What makes that Oracle database that your property assessor uses to store your parcel information in enforceable? Oh yeah, the government.
        illiarian 4y ago
        > > You literally said that all the data is stored somewhere else. > No, I didn't... NFT would be hash of the data that is stored off chain. Yes. You literally said all the data would be stored somewhere else. > This is no different than any other system. If this is no different than any other system, then it has no benefits of any other system. > What makes that Oracle database that your property assessor uses to store your parcel information in enforceable? Oh yeah, the government. Indeed, the government. Who makes your fantasy tokens referring to physical objects enforceable? Oh right. No one.
- Yizahi 4y ago
  The hash literally changes nothing except for maybe verifying integrity of the data, and that is debatable. Add hash in the examples above and literally nothing will change. You can't just throw technojargon term at everything and see where it sticks.
  - ahnick 4y ago
    The hash is critical as it is what enables you to verify that the off-chain data is correct. What exactly did you think was technojargon? I'll be happy to elaborate.
    - popcalc 4y ago
      Why not just check the off-chain database and sidestep the hash stuff in the first place? If the off-chain data is "incorrect", what are you going to do? Can anybody mint those NFTs? What's the point then? The government is the only one who can kick you out of that house irl.
      - ahnick 4y ago
        Since the on-chain hash is part of an immutable object that no one can change, then anyone can use it to verify that the off-chain data is valid at anytime. (No one needs to go ask someone else whether it is valid they can check for themselves) If the off-chain data was found to be invalid, then a correct version of that off-chain data would need to be provided or a process would have to be developed that would handle exceptions where the document is no longer available and now a new NFT would need to be minted. The minting process could be managed by the government or some entity using an on-chain contract or it could just be a manual process that the government does in conjunction with banks. The enforcement of the ownership records would still be held with the government. The point of having property records as NFT on-chain data is it enables easy to verify ownership of property records, transparency/auditability of property records, and easy transfers of property records to new owners.
        JohnFen 4y ago

by Yizahi 4y ago

ahnick 4y ago

No, it's not impossible. You don't need to store all state on chain. You will just need to store a hash of the off-chain data on chain. The supplemental off-chain data can be stored in standardized storage systems, which they themselves might be highly distributed and standardized. (e.g. IPFS)

illiarian 4y ago
> You don't need to store all state on chain. You will just need to store a hash of the off-chain data on chain. The supplemental off-chain data can be stored in standardized storage systems It amazes me how people say this with straight face. "Just store all the data off-chain!". Then the chain isn't needed.
- ahnick 4y ago
  I'm not sure how you made that jump in logic. The chain is absolutely needed as it stores and establishes cryptographic proof of ownership. This is the entire premise behind validity rollups for layer 2 networks.
  - illiarian 4y ago
    > I'm not sure how you made that jump in logic. What jump? You literally said that all the data is stored somewhere else. > stores and establishes cryptographic proof of ownership. It stores some unenforceable token that is only valid as long as those who actually enforce ownership agree that it proves anything. So: - all data is stored elsewhere, on centralised servers - proof of ownership is enforced by centralised entities (governments, courts, police, etc.) Great application of blockchains.
    - ahnick 4y ago
      > You literally said that all the data is stored somewhere else. No, I didn't. The NFT would be stored on chain and inside the NFT would be hash of the data that is stored off chain. Anyone can then source the off chain data from any location and then compute the hash of that data and compare it with what is stored on chain. > It stores some unenforceable token that is only valid as long as those who actually enforce ownership agree that it proves anything. This is no different than any other system. What makes that Oracle database that your property assessor uses to store your parcel information in enforceable? Oh yeah, the government.
      - illiarian 4y ago
        > > You literally said that all the data is stored somewhere else. > No, I didn't... NFT would be hash of the data that is stored off chain. Yes. You literally said all the data would be stored somewhere else. > This is no different than any other system. If this is no different than any other system, then it has no benefits of any other system. > What makes that Oracle database that your property assessor uses to store your parcel information in enforceable? Oh yeah, the government. Indeed, the government. Who makes your fantasy tokens referring to physical objects enforceable? Oh right. No one.
Yizahi 4y ago
The hash literally changes nothing except for maybe verifying integrity of the data, and that is debatable. Add hash in the examples above and literally nothing will change. You can't just throw technojargon term at everything and see where it sticks.
- ahnick 4y ago
  The hash is critical as it is what enables you to verify that the off-chain data is correct. What exactly did you think was technojargon? I'll be happy to elaborate.
  - popcalc 4y ago
    Why not just check the off-chain database and sidestep the hash stuff in the first place? If the off-chain data is "incorrect", what are you going to do? Can anybody mint those NFTs? What's the point then? The government is the only one who can kick you out of that house irl.
    - ahnick 4y ago
      Since the on-chain hash is part of an immutable object that no one can change, then anyone can use it to verify that the off-chain data is valid at anytime. (No one needs to go ask someone else whether it is valid they can check for themselves) If the off-chain data was found to be invalid, then a correct version of that off-chain data would need to be provided or a process would have to be developed that would handle exceptions where the document is no longer available and now a new NFT would need to be minted. The minting process could be managed by the government or some entity using an on-chain contract or it could just be a manual process that the government does in conjunction with banks. The enforcement of the ownership records would still be held with the government. The point of having property records as NFT on-chain data is it enables easy to verify ownership of property records, transparency/auditability of property records, and easy transfers of property records to new owners.
      - JohnFen 4y ago