11 ms·

NFTs are probably best thought of as ownership records or certificates for items that could be either digital goods or physical goods. If you want NFTs to be us

by ahnick 4y ago

NFTs are probably best thought of as ownership records or certificates for items that could be either digital goods or physical goods. If you want NFTs to be useful as an ownership record for a physical good, then there will need to be some authority in the physical world that agrees to use the NFTs on a specific blockchain as the system of record for transactions of that good. (e.g. local municipalities using NFTs on Ethereum to represent property deeds) Some benefits of NFTs in the property deed example would be: - The elimination of the need for municipalities to maintain proprietary databases to hold property deeds - 24/7 globally accessible property information. (No downtime) - Standardized and globally interoperable property records across municipalities and potentially countries - Easy to prove and verify ownership of properties, which could be used to grant access to third party services for homeowners. (e.g. HELOCs) - Dapps could allow property owners to post the NFT deed as collateral and automate the loan application process to reduce processing costs.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
automatic6131 4y ago
All of this is literally easier and cheaper to do without NFT woo. The reason why it doesn't already exist is that there's practically no need for it. >Dapps could allow property owners to post the NFT deed as collateral and automate the loan application process to reduce processing costs. Do you not see how this is a bad idea? What value is the NFT deed? The house has the value - what's the NFT worth? If you have the NFT deed, are you the house owner? Bruh.
- ahnick 4y ago
  How would you design an HA system that has literally 0 downtime and accessible from anywhere in the world that people can cryptographically prove ownership of a property? How would you prevent DDoS attacks of that system? Further, how would you keep costs low enough that a typical small city or township could afford said HA property system? What value is the property deed? The house has the value - what's the property deed worth? If you have the property deed, are you the house owner?
  - illiarian 4y ago
    > If you have the property deed, are you the house owner? That's a great question. Riddle me this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27212564 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27212564
    - ahnick 4y ago
      I'm not sure what you think that proves? Government corruption has and will always exist. If anything, a public blockchain will make manipulation of property records more easily detectable.
      - illiarian 4y ago
        > I'm not sure what you think that proves? Your question was, quote, "If you have the property deed, are you the house owner?" I gave you an example of a property deed, and issues that could arise around that property deed. Now, how exactly will blockchain help in the cases I described?
        ahnick 4y ago
        My original question illustrates that an NFT deed is interchangeable with a property deed. Public blockchains can help expose manipulations of property records because the history of record transactions are available for anyone to check. You don't get that with closed centralized property systems.
        illiarian 4y ago
        > My original question illustrates that an NFT deed is interchangeable with a property deed. It's not. NFTs are non-enforceable. > Public blockchains can help expose manipulations of property records No they can't. I literally provided you with examples.
        ahnick 4y ago
Yizahi 4y ago
This is impossible. Basically you MUST have a centralised DB at the municipality storing all the data at before (because it is impossible to do so on chain, due to chain tech limitations). Plus you have a useless NFT chain on the side, where NFTs are primitive URLs to the centralised DB (CDB). Even more - they are one way links. So that CDB doesn't know anything about blockchain state and NFTs. Next problem - no person owns NFTs, they are owned by wallets. Therefore these wallet must be deanonimised and registered at the municipality and in the CDB, so that there is at least one place to show who owns a deed. Now some potential scenarios: 1. A sells deed to B. So now they do in on chain and NFT is sold from wallet X to Y. All of that is registered in the CDB and confirmed with paper documents, contracts and stuff. Maaaybe that can work, but as we see NFTs are useless fifth leg in a horse here. 2. Inheritance. Deed is inherited by law by person C (with or wihtout wallet Z), but chain doesn't know about it and thinks wallet X still owns NFT. CDB has actual data and overrides "wallet X" line, so that chain now useless and outdated. 3. Law enforces deed transfer from A to B. Again, NFT is not sold and chain is not updated. The list of situations can go on and on. And last note - these so called "dapps", which are neither smart nor contracts, are the most stupidly delusional thing you can introduce into a valuable commodities market. Only people not familiar with the scale and rate of exploits caused by usage of these dumb and badly designed programs can suggest it. Or the one profiteering from this. Phishing is over the top and even experienced users at r/CC are regularly losing everything due to a single click mistakes. This is not how housing market worked and will work. Not how any market works actually.
- ahnick 4y ago
  No, it's not impossible. You don't need to store all state on chain. You will just need to store a hash of the off-chain data on chain. The supplemental off-chain data can be stored in standardized storage systems, which they themselves might be highly distributed and standardized. (e.g. IPFS)
  - illiarian 4y ago
    > You don't need to store all state on chain. You will just need to store a hash of the off-chain data on chain. The supplemental off-chain data can be stored in standardized storage systems It amazes me how people say this with straight face. "Just store all the data off-chain!". Then the chain isn't needed.
illiarian 4y ago
> The elimination of the need for municipalities to maintain proprietary databases to hold property deeds Of course it doesn't eliminate the need. Who's going to enter those records and enforce them? > Standardized and globally interoperable property records across municipalities and potentially countries Just because it's on blockchain doesn't mean it's standardised, or interoperable. > Easy to prove and verify ownership of properties, which could be used to grant access to third party services for homeowners. Yup. Until a corrupt government official puts his friend as the owner of your house and evicts you. Look, the proof is in the blockchain, and it's irrefutable, and cannot be amended. > Dapps could allow property owners to post the NFT deed as collateral and automate the loan application process to reduce processing costs. This is just a string off made-up terms that make no sense
- ahnick 4y ago
  > Of course it doesn't eliminate the need. Who's going to enter those records and enforce them? The staff still does what they do today, but they no longer need to maintain their own database and IT application. > Just because it's on blockchain doesn't mean it's standardised, or interoperable. Once it is on a blockchain it is conforming to a published standard for NFTs for that particular blockchain and others can interact with it and build additional systems that interoperate more easily. > Yup. Until a corrupt government official puts his friend as the owner of your house and evicts you. Look, the proof is in the blockchain, and it's irrefutable, and cannot be amended. Because corrupt government officials have never doctored official records that weren't on the blockchain? > This is just a string off made-up terms that make no sense No, it's not. A Dapp stands for a "decentralized application" and posting property deeds as collateral is a real thing. Further, being able to do that digitally will likely lower processing costs.
  - illiarian 4y ago
    > The staff still does what they do today, but they no longer need to maintain their own database and IT application. That's a very minor thing to maintain as compared to the multiple issues that blockchains bring into the mix. And of course they will need to maintain an IT application: they will need secure wallet implementations, data entry applications to interact with blockchains, security audits for the shitty programs people keep calling "smart contracts" etc. > Once it is on a blockchain it is conforming to a published standard for NFTs Ah yes. It automagically conforms to some standard. Just because it's on blockchain. > Because corrupt government officials have never doctored official records that weren't on the blockchain? And how is blockchain helping you in this case? Or in the cases I linked: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27212564 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27212564 and that you even failed to understand.
atoav 4y ago
I can literally set up a blockchain that says I own the Mona Lisa. Me saying so, or me putting it on a blockchain doesn't make it so. A blockchain solves the specific problem of how to track ownership of some piece of data in a decentralized fashion where multiple parties do not trust each other. This, however is not the hard problem when we talk about ownership databases. The hard problem is ensuring the data entered into that database represents actual real world ownership and having the database universally recognized by everybody as a representation of ownership. What purpose does a database like that serve, when the actual place where the rubber of ownership hits the road is somwhere else?
- ahnick 4y ago
  > I can literally set up a blockchain that says I own the Mona Lisa. Me saying so, or me putting it on a blockchain doesn't make it so. Agreed. The parties that are interacting must agree on which blockchain to interact on first. More likely an industry, trade association, or government would say this chain is going to be the system of record of where transactions take place and then individuals and businesses are forced to abide by that. Then once that is decided, any transfer of ownership on that chain would expect to be honored by the transferring party. If not, then consequences would be enforced by the governing industry, trade association, government. etc. > A blockchain solves the specific problem of how to track ownership of some piece of data in a decentralized fashion where multiple parties do not trust each other. > This, however is not the hard problem when we talk about ownership databases. The hard problem is ensuring the data entered into that database represents actual real world ownership and having the database universally recognized by everybody as a representation of ownership. > What purpose does a database like that serve, when the actual place where the rubber of ownership hits the road is somwhere else? Yes, there is sort of a bootstrapping problem around how do you get people onboarded onto a particular blockchain. For that I think you need some novel use case(s). For Bitcoin it was being the first alternative monetary system. For Ethereum it was the ability to create on-chain programs. Zcash it was private transactions. etc. Once people are onboarded though, then you can use that system to agree on where ownership entry and change of ownership transactions take place. Then you can use the publicly auditable history to prove ownership. For a physical good, then that becomes evidence that can be presented to a third party presiding entity who settles disputes.

by ahnick 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

automatic6131 4y ago

All of this is literally easier and cheaper to do without NFT woo. The reason why it doesn't already exist is that there's practically no need for it. >Dapps could allow property owners to post the NFT deed as collateral and automate the loan application process to reduce processing costs. Do you not see how this is a bad idea? What value is the NFT deed? The house has the value - what's the NFT worth? If you have the NFT deed, are you the house owner? Bruh.

ahnick 4y ago
How would you design an HA system that has literally 0 downtime and accessible from anywhere in the world that people can cryptographically prove ownership of a property? How would you prevent DDoS attacks of that system? Further, how would you keep costs low enough that a typical small city or township could afford said HA property system? What value is the property deed? The house has the value - what's the property deed worth? If you have the property deed, are you the house owner?
- illiarian 4y ago
  > If you have the property deed, are you the house owner? That's a great question. Riddle me this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27212564 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27212564
  - ahnick 4y ago
    I'm not sure what you think that proves? Government corruption has and will always exist. If anything, a public blockchain will make manipulation of property records more easily detectable.
    - illiarian 4y ago
      > I'm not sure what you think that proves? Your question was, quote, "If you have the property deed, are you the house owner?" I gave you an example of a property deed, and issues that could arise around that property deed. Now, how exactly will blockchain help in the cases I described?
      - ahnick 4y ago
        My original question illustrates that an NFT deed is interchangeable with a property deed. Public blockchains can help expose manipulations of property records because the history of record transactions are available for anyone to check. You don't get that with closed centralized property systems.
        illiarian 4y ago
        > My original question illustrates that an NFT deed is interchangeable with a property deed. It's not. NFTs are non-enforceable. > Public blockchains can help expose manipulations of property records No they can't. I literally provided you with examples.
        ahnick 4y ago

Yizahi 4y ago

This is impossible. Basically you MUST have a centralised DB at the municipality storing all the data at before (because it is impossible to do so on chain, due to chain tech limitations). Plus you have a useless NFT chain on the side, where NFTs are primitive URLs to the centralised DB (CDB). Even more - they are one way links. So that CDB doesn't know anything about blockchain state and NFTs. Next problem - no person owns NFTs, they are owned by wallets. Therefore these wallet must be deanonimised and registered at the municipality and in the CDB, so that there is at least one place to show who owns a deed. Now some potential scenarios: 1. A sells deed to B. So now they do in on chain and NFT is sold from wallet X to Y. All of that is registered in the CDB and confirmed with paper documents, contracts and stuff. Maaaybe that can work, but as we see NFTs are useless fifth leg in a horse here. 2. Inheritance. Deed is inherited by law by person C (with or wihtout wallet Z), but chain doesn't know about it and thinks wallet X still owns NFT. CDB has actual data and overrides "wallet X" line, so that chain now useless and outdated. 3. Law enforces deed transfer from A to B. Again, NFT is not sold and chain is not updated. The list of situations can go on and on. And last note - these so called "dapps", which are neither smart nor contracts, are the most stupidly delusional thing you can introduce into a valuable commodities market. Only people not familiar with the scale and rate of exploits caused by usage of these dumb and badly designed programs can suggest it. Or the one profiteering from this. Phishing is over the top and even experienced users at r/CC are regularly losing everything due to a single click mistakes. This is not how housing market worked and will work. Not how any market works actually.

ahnick 4y ago
No, it's not impossible. You don't need to store all state on chain. You will just need to store a hash of the off-chain data on chain. The supplemental off-chain data can be stored in standardized storage systems, which they themselves might be highly distributed and standardized. (e.g. IPFS)
- illiarian 4y ago
  > You don't need to store all state on chain. You will just need to store a hash of the off-chain data on chain. The supplemental off-chain data can be stored in standardized storage systems It amazes me how people say this with straight face. "Just store all the data off-chain!". Then the chain isn't needed.

illiarian 4y ago

> The elimination of the need for municipalities to maintain proprietary databases to hold property deeds Of course it doesn't eliminate the need. Who's going to enter those records and enforce them? > Standardized and globally interoperable property records across municipalities and potentially countries Just because it's on blockchain doesn't mean it's standardised, or interoperable. > Easy to prove and verify ownership of properties, which could be used to grant access to third party services for homeowners. Yup. Until a corrupt government official puts his friend as the owner of your house and evicts you. Look, the proof is in the blockchain, and it's irrefutable, and cannot be amended. > Dapps could allow property owners to post the NFT deed as collateral and automate the loan application process to reduce processing costs. This is just a string off made-up terms that make no sense

ahnick 4y ago
> Of course it doesn't eliminate the need. Who's going to enter those records and enforce them? The staff still does what they do today, but they no longer need to maintain their own database and IT application. > Just because it's on blockchain doesn't mean it's standardised, or interoperable. Once it is on a blockchain it is conforming to a published standard for NFTs for that particular blockchain and others can interact with it and build additional systems that interoperate more easily. > Yup. Until a corrupt government official puts his friend as the owner of your house and evicts you. Look, the proof is in the blockchain, and it's irrefutable, and cannot be amended. Because corrupt government officials have never doctored official records that weren't on the blockchain? > This is just a string off made-up terms that make no sense No, it's not. A Dapp stands for a "decentralized application" and posting property deeds as collateral is a real thing. Further, being able to do that digitally will likely lower processing costs.
- illiarian 4y ago
  > The staff still does what they do today, but they no longer need to maintain their own database and IT application. That's a very minor thing to maintain as compared to the multiple issues that blockchains bring into the mix. And of course they will need to maintain an IT application: they will need secure wallet implementations, data entry applications to interact with blockchains, security audits for the shitty programs people keep calling "smart contracts" etc. > Once it is on a blockchain it is conforming to a published standard for NFTs Ah yes. It automagically conforms to some standard. Just because it's on blockchain. > Because corrupt government officials have never doctored official records that weren't on the blockchain? And how is blockchain helping you in this case? Or in the cases I linked: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27212564 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27212564 and that you even failed to understand.

atoav 4y ago

I can literally set up a blockchain that says I own the Mona Lisa. Me saying so, or me putting it on a blockchain doesn't make it so. A blockchain solves the specific problem of how to track ownership of some piece of data in a decentralized fashion where multiple parties do not trust each other. This, however is not the hard problem when we talk about ownership databases. The hard problem is ensuring the data entered into that database represents actual real world ownership and having the database universally recognized by everybody as a representation of ownership. What purpose does a database like that serve, when the actual place where the rubber of ownership hits the road is somwhere else?

ahnick 4y ago
> I can literally set up a blockchain that says I own the Mona Lisa. Me saying so, or me putting it on a blockchain doesn't make it so. Agreed. The parties that are interacting must agree on which blockchain to interact on first. More likely an industry, trade association, or government would say this chain is going to be the system of record of where transactions take place and then individuals and businesses are forced to abide by that. Then once that is decided, any transfer of ownership on that chain would expect to be honored by the transferring party. If not, then consequences would be enforced by the governing industry, trade association, government. etc. > A blockchain solves the specific problem of how to track ownership of some piece of data in a decentralized fashion where multiple parties do not trust each other. > This, however is not the hard problem when we talk about ownership databases. The hard problem is ensuring the data entered into that database represents actual real world ownership and having the database universally recognized by everybody as a representation of ownership. > What purpose does a database like that serve, when the actual place where the rubber of ownership hits the road is somwhere else? Yes, there is sort of a bootstrapping problem around how do you get people onboarded onto a particular blockchain. For that I think you need some novel use case(s). For Bitcoin it was being the first alternative monetary system. For Ethereum it was the ability to create on-chain programs. Zcash it was private transactions. etc. Once people are onboarded though, then you can use that system to agree on where ownership entry and change of ownership transactions take place. Then you can use the publicly auditable history to prove ownership. For a physical good, then that becomes evidence that can be presented to a third party presiding entity who settles disputes.