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> Lawmakers cannot change if they so choose... They can modify it, You know here all this time I thought that "modify" is a synonym of "change". So can lawmake

> Lawmakers cannot change if they so choose... They can modify it, You know here all this time I thought that "modify" is a synonym of "change". So can lawmakers modify it or can they not modify it?

karmasimida 4y ago
I read modifying it requires like super super majority like over 80% of approval from senate legislature, effectively it couldnt be done So it is yes and no i guess, in theory yes, in practice better forget about it. This is state constitution, it isnt meant to be modified as someone pleases
- SllX 4y ago
  Our State Constitution is modified frequently at the ballot box. This one amendment to the law is just more difficult to amend than all the rest of the Constitution because it was designed specifically to be extremely difficult verging on impossible to amend but not technically impossible to amend as part of its text; and voters approved it with a far lower threshold than it would take for the legislature to modify it.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > This one amendment to the law is just more difficult to amend than all the rest of the Constitution No, its not. The Constitution can only be amended by a vote of the people (either by initiative or proposed by the legislature.) This law can be amended by a vote of the people (either by initiative or proposed by the legislature), or it can be amended within certain bounds by a 7/8 vote of each house of the State Legislature without a vote of the people. It is, strictly, easier to amend than any part of the State Constitution.
    - SllX 4y ago
      On paper you are 100% correct that it is strictly speaking legally easier to amend this law; but in reality, clearing the majority necessary to amend our Constitution is politically a lower bar than getting 7/8 of the legislature to amend this particular law. We really do amend it regularly and most voters I talk to don’t put a whole lot of thought into whether it’s a constitutional amendment or a statute. If they’re for whatever it is, they’re for it, and if they’re against it, they’re against it. The mechanics matter to a minority of us.
      - dragonwriter 4y ago
        > On paper you are 100% correct that it is strictly speaking legally easier to amend this law; but in reality, clearing the majority necessary to amend our Constitution is politically a lower bar than getting 7/8 of the legislature to amend this particular law. Perhaps, but the comparison isn’t “7/8 of the legislature vs. a bare majority of the people” it is “7/8 of the legislature or a bare majority of the people vs. a bare majority of the people”. It is absolutely not harder to amend Prop 22 than the State Constitution, or a normal initiative statute. It is easier. Perhaps only so slightly easier as to make no substantial difference, but your claim is that it is harder, and that is completely wrong. Even if it is not substantially easier, it is also not at all harder.
        SllX 4y ago
        You know what? I’ll concede this one. Technically you’re correct, but I think we have a different perspective on which of these two is a lower bar to clear and that’s fine. Cheers!
bryanrasmussen 4y ago
change and modify some times have different meanings in legal systems and can apply to versioning of the laws (don't know if that is the case here) as an example you might say Law X section 7 says Uber drivers are contractors. In some systems a change would be to remove this provision or to say the opposite. a modification might be to add: The definition of contractor will follow the amended definition of contractor as in Law Y Section 9 - subsection Uber contractors.
- oneplane 4y ago
  So in essence, the law system uses different rules for language and applies it to everyone, but almost everyone uses language in a people way, not in a legal way. Sounds like a recipe for disaster.
  - bryanrasmussen 4y ago
    In essence every complicated field has specialized jargon that differs from the common usage, also I'm not sure if this is the case in California legal system, I was just pointing out that some systems differentiate between what it means to change and modify - generally when discussions are made between experts in that system.
  - scld 4y ago
    In many engineering contexts, modify and change would mean two distinct things. Of course, it's context dependent but: - "Modify" this part on the widget: Please alter this part to function correctly. - "Change" this part on the widget: Please replace this part with a new part so that the widget functions correctly. e.g. if I modified a cover, it probably means I drilled an extra hole or something to make it fit.....if I changed the cover, it probably means that I found a new cover that had the right hole.

> Lawmakers cannot change if they so choose... They can modify it, You know here all this time I thought that "modify" is a synonym of "change". So can lawmakers modify it or can they not modify it?

karmasimida 4y ago

I read modifying it requires like super super majority like over 80% of approval from senate legislature, effectively it couldnt be done So it is yes and no i guess, in theory yes, in practice better forget about it. This is state constitution, it isnt meant to be modified as someone pleases

SllX 4y ago
Our State Constitution is modified frequently at the ballot box. This one amendment to the law is just more difficult to amend than all the rest of the Constitution because it was designed specifically to be extremely difficult verging on impossible to amend but not technically impossible to amend as part of its text; and voters approved it with a far lower threshold than it would take for the legislature to modify it.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > This one amendment to the law is just more difficult to amend than all the rest of the Constitution No, its not. The Constitution can only be amended by a vote of the people (either by initiative or proposed by the legislature.) This law can be amended by a vote of the people (either by initiative or proposed by the legislature), or it can be amended within certain bounds by a 7/8 vote of each house of the State Legislature without a vote of the people. It is, strictly, easier to amend than any part of the State Constitution.
  - SllX 4y ago
    On paper you are 100% correct that it is strictly speaking legally easier to amend this law; but in reality, clearing the majority necessary to amend our Constitution is politically a lower bar than getting 7/8 of the legislature to amend this particular law. We really do amend it regularly and most voters I talk to don’t put a whole lot of thought into whether it’s a constitutional amendment or a statute. If they’re for whatever it is, they’re for it, and if they’re against it, they’re against it. The mechanics matter to a minority of us.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > On paper you are 100% correct that it is strictly speaking legally easier to amend this law; but in reality, clearing the majority necessary to amend our Constitution is politically a lower bar than getting 7/8 of the legislature to amend this particular law. Perhaps, but the comparison isn’t “7/8 of the legislature vs. a bare majority of the people” it is “7/8 of the legislature or a bare majority of the people vs. a bare majority of the people”. It is absolutely not harder to amend Prop 22 than the State Constitution, or a normal initiative statute. It is easier. Perhaps only so slightly easier as to make no substantial difference, but your claim is that it is harder, and that is completely wrong. Even if it is not substantially easier, it is also not at all harder.
      - SllX 4y ago
        You know what? I’ll concede this one. Technically you’re correct, but I think we have a different perspective on which of these two is a lower bar to clear and that’s fine. Cheers!

bryanrasmussen 4y ago

change and modify some times have different meanings in legal systems and can apply to versioning of the laws (don't know if that is the case here) as an example you might say Law X section 7 says Uber drivers are contractors. In some systems a change would be to remove this provision or to say the opposite. a modification might be to add: The definition of contractor will follow the amended definition of contractor as in Law Y Section 9 - subsection Uber contractors.

oneplane 4y ago
So in essence, the law system uses different rules for language and applies it to everyone, but almost everyone uses language in a people way, not in a legal way. Sounds like a recipe for disaster.
- bryanrasmussen 4y ago
  In essence every complicated field has specialized jargon that differs from the common usage, also I'm not sure if this is the case in California legal system, I was just pointing out that some systems differentiate between what it means to change and modify - generally when discussions are made between experts in that system.
- scld 4y ago
  In many engineering contexts, modify and change would mean two distinct things. Of course, it's context dependent but: - "Modify" this part on the widget: Please alter this part to function correctly. - "Change" this part on the widget: Please replace this part with a new part so that the widget functions correctly. e.g. if I modified a cover, it probably means I drilled an extra hole or something to make it fit.....if I changed the cover, it probably means that I found a new cover that had the right hole.