6 ms·

And his opposition party would do that, plus vastly expand offshore drilling, plus scrap every cent of federal spending intended to reduce carbon emissions. Th

And his opposition party would do that, plus vastly expand offshore drilling, plus scrap every cent of federal spending intended to reduce carbon emissions. The political situation in the US is not and has never been compatible with combating climate change.

lostlogin 4y ago
A two party system has got to hurt when you don’t like either choice.
- hn_version_0023 4y ago
  You're constantly choosing between the lesser of two evils. Which means you're always choosing evil. It's less than ideal.
  - lostlogin 4y ago
    But even that’s broken, as it may be true of one issue, but most people care about more than one thing and the US system doesn’t really allow for that. It’s a pretty crude democracy by current standards.
  - consumer451 4y ago
    > You're constantly choosing between the lesser of two evils. I am not trying to excuse bad behavior, but there are never perfect options. Choosing between the lesser of two or more evils appears to be the adult human condition. This is important to accept because otherwise people just avoid voting.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
ChatGTP 4y ago
Wouldn't it be good if neither party did stupid crap like that? We've lost our minds at this stage. The only hopes younger people have is technology and the fact a lot of older politicians support base is dying faster than it can be replaced, so hopefully some newer blood in politics is on the horizon to make some smarter choices.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  People have been saying this for three generations now. And each new generation of rulers is more radically anti-human and pro-exploitation than the last. I hope you're ready for plan B.
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    What do you mean new generations? The people leading congress right now were also working in congress with JFK! Multiple generations of Americans have basically ignored political participation.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > The people leading congress right now were also working in congress with JFK! JFK was last in Congress in 63 years ago, and last alive 60 years ago; the longest serving member of Congress served for 59 years and retired in 2019. Chuck Schumer was first elected to Congress in 1980, Mitch McConnell in 1984, Kevin McCarthy in 2006, and Hakeem Jeffries in 2012. Only one of them was even in Congress within 20 years of Kennedy’s assassination, much less all of them being in Congress with him.
somenameforme 4y ago
You should be happy with your representation, not forced to rationalize how they're less awful than the alternative. The argument against this is itself also disingenuous. It generally entails suggesting that if you vote e.g. Green (if they happen to be who you would be happy with) then "the other side" will win, so you must vote for somebody you don't like. That outcome is indeed reasonable to expect, but what matters is what happens next. If e.g. the DNC did start losing elections because environmentally minded individuals started voting Green, they're not just going to shrug and keep losing every election. Instead, it would force them to genuinely shift their platform to regain these votes. The whole lesser of two evils nonsense is just a remarkably effective 'social exploit' to get tens of millions of people to vote not only for people they don't like, but even against their own self interest - in a democracy, in the age of the internet.
- andrekandre 4y ago
  > started voting Green, they're not just going to shrug and keep losing every election. Instead, it would force them to genuinely shift their platform to regain these votes. has this been know to work historically?
  - drewm1980 4y ago
    Yes, in the limited sense that this is a massive known problem with the USA's electoral system, and better democracies than the United States have been formed since then that are less vulnerable to the spoiler effects that resulted in the USA's pathological two party system. Here in Belgium, you can vote for greens, socialists, (thinly veiled) nazis... and they might gain a seat or two in the legislative bodies.
    - andrekandre 4y ago
      thanks for the reply, i suppose my question was not specific enough.... i agree that without the spoiler effect (first past the post system) 3rd party voting would be an option... what i was curious though was in the u.s context (where there is spoiler effect) has it been known historically to work?

lostlogin 4y ago

A two party system has got to hurt when you don’t like either choice.

hn_version_0023 4y ago
You're constantly choosing between the lesser of two evils. Which means you're always choosing evil. It's less than ideal.
- lostlogin 4y ago
  But even that’s broken, as it may be true of one issue, but most people care about more than one thing and the US system doesn’t really allow for that. It’s a pretty crude democracy by current standards.
- consumer451 4y ago
  > You're constantly choosing between the lesser of two evils. I am not trying to excuse bad behavior, but there are never perfect options. Choosing between the lesser of two or more evils appears to be the adult human condition. This is important to accept because otherwise people just avoid voting.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

ChatGTP 4y ago

Wouldn't it be good if neither party did stupid crap like that? We've lost our minds at this stage. The only hopes younger people have is technology and the fact a lot of older politicians support base is dying faster than it can be replaced, so hopefully some newer blood in politics is on the horizon to make some smarter choices.

giraffe_lady 4y ago
People have been saying this for three generations now. And each new generation of rulers is more radically anti-human and pro-exploitation than the last. I hope you're ready for plan B.
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  What do you mean new generations? The people leading congress right now were also working in congress with JFK! Multiple generations of Americans have basically ignored political participation.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > The people leading congress right now were also working in congress with JFK! JFK was last in Congress in 63 years ago, and last alive 60 years ago; the longest serving member of Congress served for 59 years and retired in 2019. Chuck Schumer was first elected to Congress in 1980, Mitch McConnell in 1984, Kevin McCarthy in 2006, and Hakeem Jeffries in 2012. Only one of them was even in Congress within 20 years of Kennedy’s assassination, much less all of them being in Congress with him.

somenameforme 4y ago

You should be happy with your representation, not forced to rationalize how they're less awful than the alternative. The argument against this is itself also disingenuous. It generally entails suggesting that if you vote e.g. Green (if they happen to be who you would be happy with) then "the other side" will win, so you must vote for somebody you don't like. That outcome is indeed reasonable to expect, but what matters is what happens next. If e.g. the DNC did start losing elections because environmentally minded individuals started voting Green, they're not just going to shrug and keep losing every election. Instead, it would force them to genuinely shift their platform to regain these votes. The whole lesser of two evils nonsense is just a remarkably effective 'social exploit' to get tens of millions of people to vote not only for people they don't like, but even against their own self interest - in a democracy, in the age of the internet.

andrekandre 4y ago
> started voting Green, they're not just going to shrug and keep losing every election. Instead, it would force them to genuinely shift their platform to regain these votes. has this been know to work historically?
- drewm1980 4y ago
  Yes, in the limited sense that this is a massive known problem with the USA's electoral system, and better democracies than the United States have been formed since then that are less vulnerable to the spoiler effects that resulted in the USA's pathological two party system. Here in Belgium, you can vote for greens, socialists, (thinly veiled) nazis... and they might gain a seat or two in the legislative bodies.
  - andrekandre 4y ago
    thanks for the reply, i suppose my question was not specific enough.... i agree that without the spoiler effect (first past the post system) 3rd party voting would be an option... what i was curious though was in the u.s context (where there is spoiler effect) has it been known historically to work?