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Why do they need "taking care" of? Are they fragile school kids? Desparate single mothers who can't make ends meet? What is with this "save our babies!" attitu

by hsn915 4y ago

Why do they need "taking care" of? Are they fragile school kids? Desparate single mothers who can't make ends meet? What is with this "save our babies!" attitude towards people who are - Well off - Highly skilled ??

spir 4y ago
Finally some sense-talking. The growing culture of paternalism in the employer-employee relationship is toxic to the foundations of our societal wealth. Personal responsibility and equal opportunity are how we got to iPhones, toothpaste in every corner store, and a store on every corner.
- TheLonelyGecko 4y ago
  > The growing culture of paternalism in the employer-employee relationship is toxic to the foundations of our societal wealth. ???
- InCityDreams 4y ago
  What? As in, could you explain....
- vanviegen 4y ago
  It's also how we got rid of a store on every corner.
  - cpursley 4y ago
    Only in America. In most developed places, there are still corner stores (in addition to big box stores).
    - coev 4y ago
      there's still a store on every corner in America, it's just one of (CVS/Walgreens/Starbucks)
      - red-iron-pine 4y ago
        Every year it feels like Snow Crash gets more and more closer to being real.
samtheDamned 4y ago
Because the risk is supposed to lie in the hands of the investors, the founders, and the people who make the decisions. When the risks taken by the people at the top succeed, they profit, when they fail, they tend to push that onto their employees through layoffs and withholding raises. Then they will turn back around saying that they deserve their lavish lifestyles because they are the ones taking the risks. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
- roflyear 4y ago
  This is the corruption of the US system of business and capitalism (and I'm a capitalist). Expenses are passed down on the employees, and the ruling class reaps the reward.
  - jachee 4y ago
    If only there were some way to, say, unify the—to use your word—employees as some sort of collective unit, so that the—again, your word—ruling class has a little less power to reap all the reward.
    - listenallyall 4y ago
      Instead of complaining that your profession lacks a union, why not pick a different career that will allow you to easily join one? Problem solved!
      - CRConrad 4y ago
        A) Why should any profession lack a union? B) If the problem is that one profession lacks a union, wouldn't the more natural solution be to start one? Problem solved!
        listenallyall 4y ago
        Sure, you're welcome to start one. My hat is off to you and/or 'jachee' if it comes to fruition. That takes a lot of real work, however, as opposed to posting a few snarky internet comments and calling it a day.
lmm 4y ago
The idea that you can just throw away an employee is bizzarre to most of the developed world. You have a responsibility to them (usually a legal one); the employee-employer relationship is an unbalanced one in many ways, and relies on that for fairness. If you want people you can get rid of at the drop of a hat you should be hiring contractors and paying the associated premium.
- aaa_aaa 4y ago
  It should not be bizarre. Everybody should adapt and act accordingly, save money and keep your axe sharp. No job is forever, no employer is your friend or family.
  - dgb23 4y ago
    That last sentence is true. But it doesn’t imply that people shouldn’t treat each other with basic respect.
  - Timon3 4y ago
    Counterpoint: it should be much more bizarre, and should track social consequences for those responsible.
  - Nevermark 4y ago
    All that can be good advice and yet helping layed off workers still be win-win for employers and employees. A reputation for sticking with employees, even through a layoff, makes a company more attractive. It increases trust between employer & employees. Trust increases the efficiency of any collaboration.
  - carlitossway 4y ago
    What about demanding a salary no less than 50% of the value you add to the company? How many industries would stop being viable if their whole workforce would demand to be compensated for the worst case scenario Every single paycheck? A couple years ago this would have sounded like hyperbole, but then the Great Resignation happened, so there's that... From that point of view, severance payments are not noble handouts but compensation strategies to reduce the overall payroll cost.
bayindirh 4y ago
From what I know from an old friend of my dad, helping coworkers who lost their jobs to land somewhere else is a well rooted custom in US. Said friend told me numerous stories about how he gave positive references or call his friends in other companies for positions for coworkers who were laid off, during his tenure in IBM. Helping people who lost their jobs because of reasons which they can't control is being a good person, for once, too.
Draiken 4y ago
It always astonishes me seeing how ingrained this individualistic capitalistic mindset is on so many. People have been brainwashed. These are people. This could be you, or your friend, espouse, mother, sister... And just because you can bounce back, it doesn't mean this is okay. Even if they have money saved and can use that to find a (hopefully) better next job, that's not easy or guaranteed. It seems that this "criticism" is more like jealousy than anything else. If they were not earning a bit more than others then we can feel bad for them. Otherwise let's pretend it's fine and yell "screw them". Meanwhile the rich fucks are still getting richer even with the "risk" they take. Not sure how that can even count as risk, given these VCs are all multi-millionaires that can afford to fail multiple times over in the first place. But it's somehow easier to hate the person that makes a few more bucks than you, than it is to hate the money hoarders that control the lives of so many of us.
- benjaminsuch 4y ago
  This has nothing to do with being brainwashed. Couldn't we say the same about your stance? Yes they are people, but a company is NOT responsible for them. Where does this come from? An employee has an employment relationship and not a friendship and while it certainly sucks to be let go, it's not the company who is the bad guy. From what I see, you can't take off your personal morale views from business decisions. > Meanwhile the rich fucks are still getting richer even with the "risk" they take. What even has that anything to do with what parent is saying? Or the topic we are discussing? Is in your opinion no company is allowed to let go people, except if they pamper them with a big severance package? Sorry, but your post reads very childish and naive.
  - throwawayhello1 4y ago
    >Where does this come from? Have you talked to anyone from HR in the past decade???? It's all "we're one big family" this, "bring your whole self to work" that. The company trying to brand itself as a good guy and not as a money making vehicle goes both ways.
    - benjaminsuch 4y ago
TheHappyOddish 4y ago
Seems to be a weird American tech thing. In the real world, people lose their jobs, do their notice period (if any) and take steps towards securing a new one. For whatever reason, American tech workers appear to think they should get 5-10x the median income or more, also get stock in the company, also have flexible work/life hours and also be "looked after" (what does this mean? More money?) after they're fired. They're clearly in a bubble.

by hsn915 4y ago

spir 4y ago

Finally some sense-talking. The growing culture of paternalism in the employer-employee relationship is toxic to the foundations of our societal wealth. Personal responsibility and equal opportunity are how we got to iPhones, toothpaste in every corner store, and a store on every corner.

TheLonelyGecko 4y ago
> The growing culture of paternalism in the employer-employee relationship is toxic to the foundations of our societal wealth. ???
InCityDreams 4y ago
What? As in, could you explain....
vanviegen 4y ago
It's also how we got rid of a store on every corner.
- cpursley 4y ago
  Only in America. In most developed places, there are still corner stores (in addition to big box stores).
  - coev 4y ago
    there's still a store on every corner in America, it's just one of (CVS/Walgreens/Starbucks)
    - red-iron-pine 4y ago
      Every year it feels like Snow Crash gets more and more closer to being real.

samtheDamned 4y ago

Because the risk is supposed to lie in the hands of the investors, the founders, and the people who make the decisions. When the risks taken by the people at the top succeed, they profit, when they fail, they tend to push that onto their employees through layoffs and withholding raises. Then they will turn back around saying that they deserve their lavish lifestyles because they are the ones taking the risks. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

roflyear 4y ago
This is the corruption of the US system of business and capitalism (and I'm a capitalist). Expenses are passed down on the employees, and the ruling class reaps the reward.
- jachee 4y ago
  If only there were some way to, say, unify the—to use your word—employees as some sort of collective unit, so that the—again, your word—ruling class has a little less power to reap all the reward.
  - listenallyall 4y ago
    Instead of complaining that your profession lacks a union, why not pick a different career that will allow you to easily join one? Problem solved!
    - CRConrad 4y ago
      A) Why should any profession lack a union? B) If the problem is that one profession lacks a union, wouldn't the more natural solution be to start one? Problem solved!
      - listenallyall 4y ago
        Sure, you're welcome to start one. My hat is off to you and/or 'jachee' if it comes to fruition. That takes a lot of real work, however, as opposed to posting a few snarky internet comments and calling it a day.

lmm 4y ago

The idea that you can just throw away an employee is bizzarre to most of the developed world. You have a responsibility to them (usually a legal one); the employee-employer relationship is an unbalanced one in many ways, and relies on that for fairness. If you want people you can get rid of at the drop of a hat you should be hiring contractors and paying the associated premium.

aaa_aaa 4y ago
It should not be bizarre. Everybody should adapt and act accordingly, save money and keep your axe sharp. No job is forever, no employer is your friend or family.
- dgb23 4y ago
  That last sentence is true. But it doesn’t imply that people shouldn’t treat each other with basic respect.
- Timon3 4y ago
  Counterpoint: it should be much more bizarre, and should track social consequences for those responsible.
- Nevermark 4y ago
  All that can be good advice and yet helping layed off workers still be win-win for employers and employees. A reputation for sticking with employees, even through a layoff, makes a company more attractive. It increases trust between employer & employees. Trust increases the efficiency of any collaboration.
- carlitossway 4y ago
  What about demanding a salary no less than 50% of the value you add to the company? How many industries would stop being viable if their whole workforce would demand to be compensated for the worst case scenario Every single paycheck? A couple years ago this would have sounded like hyperbole, but then the Great Resignation happened, so there's that... From that point of view, severance payments are not noble handouts but compensation strategies to reduce the overall payroll cost.

bayindirh 4y ago

From what I know from an old friend of my dad, helping coworkers who lost their jobs to land somewhere else is a well rooted custom in US. Said friend told me numerous stories about how he gave positive references or call his friends in other companies for positions for coworkers who were laid off, during his tenure in IBM. Helping people who lost their jobs because of reasons which they can't control is being a good person, for once, too.

Draiken 4y ago

It always astonishes me seeing how ingrained this individualistic capitalistic mindset is on so many. People have been brainwashed. These are people. This could be you, or your friend, espouse, mother, sister... And just because you can bounce back, it doesn't mean this is okay. Even if they have money saved and can use that to find a (hopefully) better next job, that's not easy or guaranteed. It seems that this "criticism" is more like jealousy than anything else. If they were not earning a bit more than others then we can feel bad for them. Otherwise let's pretend it's fine and yell "screw them". Meanwhile the rich fucks are still getting richer even with the "risk" they take. Not sure how that can even count as risk, given these VCs are all multi-millionaires that can afford to fail multiple times over in the first place. But it's somehow easier to hate the person that makes a few more bucks than you, than it is to hate the money hoarders that control the lives of so many of us.

benjaminsuch 4y ago
This has nothing to do with being brainwashed. Couldn't we say the same about your stance? Yes they are people, but a company is NOT responsible for them. Where does this come from? An employee has an employment relationship and not a friendship and while it certainly sucks to be let go, it's not the company who is the bad guy. From what I see, you can't take off your personal morale views from business decisions. > Meanwhile the rich fucks are still getting richer even with the "risk" they take. What even has that anything to do with what parent is saying? Or the topic we are discussing? Is in your opinion no company is allowed to let go people, except if they pamper them with a big severance package? Sorry, but your post reads very childish and naive.
- throwawayhello1 4y ago
  >Where does this come from? Have you talked to anyone from HR in the past decade???? It's all "we're one big family" this, "bring your whole self to work" that. The company trying to brand itself as a good guy and not as a money making vehicle goes both ways.
  - benjaminsuch 4y ago

TheHappyOddish 4y ago

Seems to be a weird American tech thing. In the real world, people lose their jobs, do their notice period (if any) and take steps towards securing a new one. For whatever reason, American tech workers appear to think they should get 5-10x the median income or more, also get stock in the company, also have flexible work/life hours and also be "looked after" (what does this mean? More money?) after they're fired. They're clearly in a bubble.