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Maybe this is my inner American Biker showing through here, but to me access to the roadway and the freedom to go where I want to, when I want to, without being

Maybe this is my inner American Biker showing through here, but to me access to the roadway and the freedom to go where I want to, when I want to, without being dependent on the competency of others to get me there is a huge feeling of freedom. I can't stand not having my vehicle nearby. When I was younger we lived about an hour away from the city. There was a gas station and a small grocery store near the out-of-the-way suburb where I lived. That was it. Getting my first car was a life-changing event for me that basically allowed me to become as independent as I am today, and 'going out for a drive' was just something I did as a young teen trying to keep himself entertained and trying to find new things to do. I ended up finding a Navy recruiter, but that's a different story. I'm aware that the costs associated with this 'One Person - One Car' idea might not be scalable over the long term, and we should probably start offloading some of the costs associated with maintaining this paradigm onto the city driver while providing good alternatives. But I will always have a vehicle, no matter what it costs me.

pwthornton 15y ago
I grew up in an exurb and know the feeling of freedom that finally having a car can give you. There wasn't much in my town and without a car, I couldn't even see most of my friends from school. The greatest freedom of all is the ability to use your own legs to take you to where you want to go. Your idea of freedom changes when you live in a walkable area and realize that you don't have to rely on anything other than yourself to get you to most things in life.
- cobrausn 15y ago
  See, I lived in upstate NY for a while in Saratoga Springs. You can walk all the way across that town very easily (I did a few times). But with my car I was able to drive up to the Adirondacks and go hiking on a whim, or drive myself and a bunch of other bored Navy guys across the border into Montreal as soon as we got off a 36-hour shift and had to be back in exactly 24 hours. Some of my local friends without vehicles ended up relying on me to get them anywhere outside of the city when they needed to. There are definite advantages to living in an area where you rarely need a vehicle, but I will always want to own one anyway. :-)
  - mitjak 15y ago
    I suppose you are an exception then, because the traffic problems, at least here in Toronto, arise from a large majority of people who positively do not need a personal vehicle for their day-to-day activities.
    - cobrausn 15y ago
      Well, I would argue that the traffic problems arise because of a failure on the part of city planners to design their roadways to accommodate the amount of traffic that they receive (not a problem unique to Toronto), but yes, the traffic problems would certainly be reduced if less people used vehicles.
      - philwelch 15y ago
        Car traffic fundamentally isn't scalable in urban areas. The only failure on the part of city planners is attempting to accomodate that kind of selfish, wasteful behavior.
        angersock 15y ago
        Please clarify on your "selfish" remark. Thanks!
        anthonyb 15y ago
        Cars ruin the amenity of your city. Space taken up with roads and parking can't be used for anything else, and cars are dangerous to be in or around. If you know that, and still choose to drive, then you are, to some extent, selfish.
        cobrausn 15y ago
        I think it's actually a bit more selfish to want people to give up their earned conveniences to satisfy your own particular desires, in this case, making the city 'how it should be', when it clearly works fairly well the way it is. Saying cities are 'ruined' by cars is hyperbole and guilt-based rhetoric, plain and simple.
- camiller 15y ago
  First, understand that I am not suggesting you or others like you are wrong, if you are happy then cool. But... I simply cannot understand the desire to live in such close proximity to large numbers of other people. Never ever again will I subject myself to high density living. I live in a suburb and simply hate having to go downtown especially when there are big events going on. The bars are crowded, eating establishments are packed, noisy has hell. Won't do it, you can't make me! I like the quiet, I like being able to walk into a suburban bar and not have to shoulder my way through a crowd to try to find a seat if one is even available. It's nice to simply walk in, sit down on a bar stool and actually hear the game on the TV. I like not having the noise of a city outside my window when I sleep. The greatest freedom of all is that either of us can make the choice of what lifestyle suits us.
  - tdfx 15y ago
    The bars are crowded, eating establishments are packed, noisy has hell. But how many of those people drove to the downtown area because there were no equivalent establishments within walking distance of their suburban homes? Not trying being a dick, of course, just pointing out the chicken and egg nature of the problem.
    - nupark2 15y ago
      I think it's an accurate assessment. I live in NYC, and most neighborhood bars are not crowded and noisy as hell. However, if I go to a "destination" for out-of-towners[1], then yes: it's packed, noisy, and insufferable. Same thing with traffic -- most of the personal automobile traffic in the cities comes from commuters that don't live here. [1] I was trying really hard not to say "bridge and tunnel" ...
  - delackner 15y ago
    As for the deep revulsion of being surrounded by tons of people, you're right, you have that right to feel that way. Personally, a crowd of 50,000 people is still easy to walk through, but even 1,000 people trying to leave a big sports event in their cars at the same time is a total nightmare taking an hour+ and during that whole time you are completely stuck in your car. I left a soccer game in Tokyo that was at a completely absolutely full stadium, and when it ended the huge mass of people slowly and orderly filed to the nearby train stations and we were on a train (packed) heading home within 20 minutes, at full speed. It would be lovely if we could choose which lifestyle suits us, but most of the cities in the US do not provide ANY option for someone who wants proper high-density, so to exercise my "freedom" to live in a pedestrian friendly high-density city involved leaving the US entirely.
josephcooney 15y ago
> the freedom to go where I want to, when I want to, without being dependent on the competency of others to get me there is a huge feeling of freedom. I get the same feeling of freedom from walking, except I'm not really dependent on the presence of roads.
- cobrausn 15y ago
  The businesses and other establishments around you that make you 'independent from roads'? Yeah, those are likely completely dependent on roads. So you aren't, really.

pwthornton 15y ago

I grew up in an exurb and know the feeling of freedom that finally having a car can give you. There wasn't much in my town and without a car, I couldn't even see most of my friends from school. The greatest freedom of all is the ability to use your own legs to take you to where you want to go. Your idea of freedom changes when you live in a walkable area and realize that you don't have to rely on anything other than yourself to get you to most things in life.

cobrausn 15y ago
See, I lived in upstate NY for a while in Saratoga Springs. You can walk all the way across that town very easily (I did a few times). But with my car I was able to drive up to the Adirondacks and go hiking on a whim, or drive myself and a bunch of other bored Navy guys across the border into Montreal as soon as we got off a 36-hour shift and had to be back in exactly 24 hours. Some of my local friends without vehicles ended up relying on me to get them anywhere outside of the city when they needed to. There are definite advantages to living in an area where you rarely need a vehicle, but I will always want to own one anyway. :-)
- mitjak 15y ago
  I suppose you are an exception then, because the traffic problems, at least here in Toronto, arise from a large majority of people who positively do not need a personal vehicle for their day-to-day activities.
  - cobrausn 15y ago
    Well, I would argue that the traffic problems arise because of a failure on the part of city planners to design their roadways to accommodate the amount of traffic that they receive (not a problem unique to Toronto), but yes, the traffic problems would certainly be reduced if less people used vehicles.
    - philwelch 15y ago
      Car traffic fundamentally isn't scalable in urban areas. The only failure on the part of city planners is attempting to accomodate that kind of selfish, wasteful behavior.
      - angersock 15y ago
        Please clarify on your "selfish" remark. Thanks!
        anthonyb 15y ago
        Cars ruin the amenity of your city. Space taken up with roads and parking can't be used for anything else, and cars are dangerous to be in or around. If you know that, and still choose to drive, then you are, to some extent, selfish.
        cobrausn 15y ago
        I think it's actually a bit more selfish to want people to give up their earned conveniences to satisfy your own particular desires, in this case, making the city 'how it should be', when it clearly works fairly well the way it is. Saying cities are 'ruined' by cars is hyperbole and guilt-based rhetoric, plain and simple.
camiller 15y ago
First, understand that I am not suggesting you or others like you are wrong, if you are happy then cool. But... I simply cannot understand the desire to live in such close proximity to large numbers of other people. Never ever again will I subject myself to high density living. I live in a suburb and simply hate having to go downtown especially when there are big events going on. The bars are crowded, eating establishments are packed, noisy has hell. Won't do it, you can't make me! I like the quiet, I like being able to walk into a suburban bar and not have to shoulder my way through a crowd to try to find a seat if one is even available. It's nice to simply walk in, sit down on a bar stool and actually hear the game on the TV. I like not having the noise of a city outside my window when I sleep. The greatest freedom of all is that either of us can make the choice of what lifestyle suits us.
- tdfx 15y ago
  The bars are crowded, eating establishments are packed, noisy has hell. But how many of those people drove to the downtown area because there were no equivalent establishments within walking distance of their suburban homes? Not trying being a dick, of course, just pointing out the chicken and egg nature of the problem.
  - nupark2 15y ago
    I think it's an accurate assessment. I live in NYC, and most neighborhood bars are not crowded and noisy as hell. However, if I go to a "destination" for out-of-towners[1], then yes: it's packed, noisy, and insufferable. Same thing with traffic -- most of the personal automobile traffic in the cities comes from commuters that don't live here. [1] I was trying really hard not to say "bridge and tunnel" ...
- delackner 15y ago
  As for the deep revulsion of being surrounded by tons of people, you're right, you have that right to feel that way. Personally, a crowd of 50,000 people is still easy to walk through, but even 1,000 people trying to leave a big sports event in their cars at the same time is a total nightmare taking an hour+ and during that whole time you are completely stuck in your car. I left a soccer game in Tokyo that was at a completely absolutely full stadium, and when it ended the huge mass of people slowly and orderly filed to the nearby train stations and we were on a train (packed) heading home within 20 minutes, at full speed. It would be lovely if we could choose which lifestyle suits us, but most of the cities in the US do not provide ANY option for someone who wants proper high-density, so to exercise my "freedom" to live in a pedestrian friendly high-density city involved leaving the US entirely.

josephcooney 15y ago

> the freedom to go where I want to, when I want to, without being dependent on the competency of others to get me there is a huge feeling of freedom. I get the same feeling of freedom from walking, except I'm not really dependent on the presence of roads.

cobrausn 15y ago
The businesses and other establishments around you that make you 'independent from roads'? Yeah, those are likely completely dependent on roads. So you aren't, really.