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Outright dismissal of two deadly coups that removed democratically elected presidents in Ukraine and ignoring THOUSANDS of Ukranians killed in Donbas at the han

Outright dismissal of two deadly coups that removed democratically elected presidents in Ukraine and ignoring THOUSANDS of Ukranians killed in Donbas at the hands of Ukrainian government prior to the invasion, tells us everything we need to know about your objectivity here.

michaelmrose 4y ago
The Russians armed separatists and criminals to oppose the democratically elected government of Ukraine installed in 2019 via election not via the conflict in 2014. Ukraine's lawful resistance to criminals attempting to set up their own fiefdom on Ukrainian lands with Russian guns is thin justification for the subsequent invasion. To put it blandly it doesn't matter whether you think Bush win over Gore was legitimate. Biden was legitimately elected and Washington state has no right to form its own nation. If the Canadians funneled tanks, guns, and soldiers to such folks we would certainly shoot people to stop such a takeover. Such shootings wouldn't provide legitimate cause for the forces of flannel to make a fast break for DC to overturn our entire government.
- EGreg 4y ago
  This is why I am a libertarian. Regular people don’t want to kill each other, but these memes cause their governments to perpetuate violence. Literally everything about these concepts and games is not worth harming millions of people. And if you were in the war zone, you’d want an end to the stupid conflict. But people who aren’t, seem to think nothing of bringing violence and volunteering other people to die for some geopolitical concept justigied by some allegory where countries are anthropomorphosized. Just to illustrate: when Ukraine and Russia were part of one federation, the same exact piece of land, Crimea changed hands from Russia to Ukraine. But back then they weren’t independent countries and it wasn’t a “matter of territorial integrity”, but just an administrative change involving road signs and local flags etc. so no one killed each other over it. Today, lots of people would support Ukraine and her allies introducing violence to Crimea, a region that has none, in order to “retake” it. I find this obscene. Humans just want to live peace and security, go to work, date, love, etc. When push comes to shove, this or that flag isn’t such a big deal to regular humans, and historically they have changed a lot so why kill for it? But the current international system is based on Countries with borders that are supposed to be eternal. For this principle, people now are ready to support killing in a never ending war because “what if someone broke into your house and stole…” Kosovo set a precedent. I would of course like to see Catalonia, Kurdistan get at least some more autonomy after their referendums. I’d like tk see Hong Kong get it too, and HN was sympathetic to those guys because we see just how different China was to HK after 100 years of being a British protectorate. Well, autonomy isn’t very bad for the host country and the Minsk II agreements gave Ukraine sovereignty and control over all its borders. Why not just accept this diplomatic solution? Ukraine did, but now we learn that both Ukrainian presidents “never intended” to fulfil it. Why? It is maddening to me. The people of Ukraine suffer because of the political class, and I include Putin in that.
  - michaelmrose 4y ago
    The people of Ukraine don't want their country to surrender the lands they live in to the monsters that are torturing and raping their sons and daughters. By and large that whinging is coming entirely from commentators bemoaning the cost of war over coffee at their kitchen tables. Nor do the people of Russia by and large want peace the overwhelming majority support sending their sons and daughters to murder Ukrainians. You dishonestly frame the prior takeover effected by treachery and threats of mass murder as an administrative change involving road signs and flags. Should a housebreaker invade your home and evict you by threatening to slaughter your family your eviction wouldn't be a peaceful administrative change in ownership just because the violence is threatened instead of realized. Despite this Crimea wouldn't be on the table had Russia not decided to take the rest of Ukraine. Should Russia wish to protect these folks from war they ought to start talking terms now.
    - EGreg 4y ago
      There is nothing dishonest about my framing of the Crimea transfer FROM RUSSIA to Ukraine. I described it accurately but you misunderstood what I said: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_of_Crimea_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_of_Crimea_in_the_So... I would prefer to get my overview of what “the people of Ukraine want” from actual polls conducted, not what people in the West simply assert. Same with Russia, India, China, etc. And the stats are clear: 1. Ukrainians didn’t want NATO during and after George W Bush pushed for Ukraine to be in NATO. If you care about what Ukrainians want then explain this “open door policy” where you shove countries through the door kicking and screaming https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2010/03/29/ukraine-says-no-to-nato/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2010/03/29/ukraine-says-n... 2. The people who live in Eastern and Southern Ukraine are only 56-58% supporting continuing the war. A very far cry from your claim that “Ukraine wants to continue the war”, much less invade Crimea. It is to be expected that the West of Ukraine on the other hand is happy to volunteer the Easterners for more meat grinder. It’s easier when you don’t have to live under daily bombings. https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-... 3. Crimea shouldn’t be on any tables. We know how Crimea voted — they wanted to be INDEPENDENT of Ukraine, since 1991: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea_in_the_post-Soviet_era_(1991%E2%80%932014)#Fall_of_the_USSR https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea_in_the_post-Soviet_er... Somehow people don’t care about Crimea’s sovereignty, only Ukraine’s. But in 2014 they voted again for Independence from Ukraine. That is not surprising! If the OSCE agreed to oversee it, the legitimacy may have been enough to make it happen — like Kosovo. But OSCE refused. That doesn’t mean Ukraine gets to bomb Crimea, does it?

michaelmrose 4y ago

The Russians armed separatists and criminals to oppose the democratically elected government of Ukraine installed in 2019 via election not via the conflict in 2014. Ukraine's lawful resistance to criminals attempting to set up their own fiefdom on Ukrainian lands with Russian guns is thin justification for the subsequent invasion. To put it blandly it doesn't matter whether you think Bush win over Gore was legitimate. Biden was legitimately elected and Washington state has no right to form its own nation. If the Canadians funneled tanks, guns, and soldiers to such folks we would certainly shoot people to stop such a takeover. Such shootings wouldn't provide legitimate cause for the forces of flannel to make a fast break for DC to overturn our entire government.

EGreg 4y ago
This is why I am a libertarian. Regular people don’t want to kill each other, but these memes cause their governments to perpetuate violence. Literally everything about these concepts and games is not worth harming millions of people. And if you were in the war zone, you’d want an end to the stupid conflict. But people who aren’t, seem to think nothing of bringing violence and volunteering other people to die for some geopolitical concept justigied by some allegory where countries are anthropomorphosized. Just to illustrate: when Ukraine and Russia were part of one federation, the same exact piece of land, Crimea changed hands from Russia to Ukraine. But back then they weren’t independent countries and it wasn’t a “matter of territorial integrity”, but just an administrative change involving road signs and local flags etc. so no one killed each other over it. Today, lots of people would support Ukraine and her allies introducing violence to Crimea, a region that has none, in order to “retake” it. I find this obscene. Humans just want to live peace and security, go to work, date, love, etc. When push comes to shove, this or that flag isn’t such a big deal to regular humans, and historically they have changed a lot so why kill for it? But the current international system is based on Countries with borders that are supposed to be eternal. For this principle, people now are ready to support killing in a never ending war because “what if someone broke into your house and stole…” Kosovo set a precedent. I would of course like to see Catalonia, Kurdistan get at least some more autonomy after their referendums. I’d like tk see Hong Kong get it too, and HN was sympathetic to those guys because we see just how different China was to HK after 100 years of being a British protectorate. Well, autonomy isn’t very bad for the host country and the Minsk II agreements gave Ukraine sovereignty and control over all its borders. Why not just accept this diplomatic solution? Ukraine did, but now we learn that both Ukrainian presidents “never intended” to fulfil it. Why? It is maddening to me. The people of Ukraine suffer because of the political class, and I include Putin in that.
- michaelmrose 4y ago
  The people of Ukraine don't want their country to surrender the lands they live in to the monsters that are torturing and raping their sons and daughters. By and large that whinging is coming entirely from commentators bemoaning the cost of war over coffee at their kitchen tables. Nor do the people of Russia by and large want peace the overwhelming majority support sending their sons and daughters to murder Ukrainians. You dishonestly frame the prior takeover effected by treachery and threats of mass murder as an administrative change involving road signs and flags. Should a housebreaker invade your home and evict you by threatening to slaughter your family your eviction wouldn't be a peaceful administrative change in ownership just because the violence is threatened instead of realized. Despite this Crimea wouldn't be on the table had Russia not decided to take the rest of Ukraine. Should Russia wish to protect these folks from war they ought to start talking terms now.
  - EGreg 4y ago
    There is nothing dishonest about my framing of the Crimea transfer FROM RUSSIA to Ukraine. I described it accurately but you misunderstood what I said: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_of_Crimea_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_of_Crimea_in_the_So... I would prefer to get my overview of what “the people of Ukraine want” from actual polls conducted, not what people in the West simply assert. Same with Russia, India, China, etc. And the stats are clear: 1. Ukrainians didn’t want NATO during and after George W Bush pushed for Ukraine to be in NATO. If you care about what Ukrainians want then explain this “open door policy” where you shove countries through the door kicking and screaming https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2010/03/29/ukraine-says-no-to-nato/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2010/03/29/ukraine-says-n... 2. The people who live in Eastern and Southern Ukraine are only 56-58% supporting continuing the war. A very far cry from your claim that “Ukraine wants to continue the war”, much less invade Crimea. It is to be expected that the West of Ukraine on the other hand is happy to volunteer the Easterners for more meat grinder. It’s easier when you don’t have to live under daily bombings. https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-... 3. Crimea shouldn’t be on any tables. We know how Crimea voted — they wanted to be INDEPENDENT of Ukraine, since 1991: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea_in_the_post-Soviet_era_(1991%E2%80%932014)#Fall_of_the_USSR https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea_in_the_post-Soviet_er... Somehow people don’t care about Crimea’s sovereignty, only Ukraine’s. But in 2014 they voted again for Independence from Ukraine. That is not surprising! If the OSCE agreed to oversee it, the legitimacy may have been enough to make it happen — like Kosovo. But OSCE refused. That doesn’t mean Ukraine gets to bomb Crimea, does it?