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>But that animals are fellow beings, a lot like us in many ways. I didn't want pain, or someone to kill me, so I figured they didn't either. I respect your nob

>But that animals are fellow beings, a lot like us in many ways. I didn't want pain, or someone to kill me, so I figured they didn't either. I respect your noble pursuit of not eating meat, and I have encountered arguments similar to yours enough times now that I feel compelled to respond in genuine kindness as someone who does like to eat meat (within "reason"). Animals are benignly cruel to each other beyond your imagination or the production of what nature documentaries will show you. Nature is a fight of survival. No animal wants pain or to be eaten, yet that is the reality that every wild animal faces. The conversation of humanizing animals is very interesting, but in the process we disregard the reality of their natural existence. Their lifespans are short, and often brutal. I weigh the reality of wilderness to the reality of industrial farming and ask myself if there isn't some kind of middle ground. I think there is. You can raise animals in pastures where they free range outside. They have a relatively peaceful, predation, free life after which you consume them (by killing them quickly and painlessly). I deplore the reality of industrial farming and "agricultural waste". Chickens being raised for one singular body part and then thrown away. We do not treat any of our food with respect, living or otherwise. We are not efficient. We do not care about quality. We don't even try consuming the whole thing. That's where I find this industry disgusting. Meat should not be this disposably cheap.

myshpa 4y ago
> Animals are benignly cruel to each other beyond your imagination https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/animals-eat-animals https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/animals-eat-animals > They have a relatively peaceful, predation, free life after which you consume them https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/humane-meat https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/humane-meat
- amrocha 4y ago
  They're not fallacies, they're fundamental disagreements. 1. No, animals do not have rights. 2. No, animal lives are not morally equal to human lives. 3. No, eating animals is not cruel. If you disagree with these then that's fine, we can have a discussion about that, but you have to understand that not everyone agrees with you on these points otherwise you'll become that annoying vegan that pushes their beliefs on everyone.
  - myshpa 4y ago
    Let's ;) > No, animals do not have rights. What about pets? Let's talk about dairy industry ... why don't we switch to dog milk? Nothing wrong with dog's milk. Full of goodness, full of vitamins, full of marrowbone jelly. Lasts longer than any other milk, dog's milk. Why? No bugger'll drink it. Plus of course the advantage of dog's milk is that when it goes off, it tastes exactly the same as when it's fresh. > No, animal lives are not morally equal to human lives. https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/animals-are-not-intelligent-enough-to-matter https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/animals-are-not-intelligen... > No, eating animals is not cruel. I won't talk about this until you watch this: https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch (warning: very graphic content). Then come back and tell me that what we do to the animals is humane and morally ok. Killing (and skinning alive) living beings who don't want to die when you don't have to is not humane. > otherwise you'll become that annoying vegan I'm already there ... and I don't care. I'm using my voice for those who can't speak. And they don't matter less than you do.
    - amrocha 4y ago
      Ok, but it might get long. And again, I'm not looking for an adversarial discussion. 1. Animal Rights Animals don't have rights because rights are a human construct. Absent humans, animal rights don't make any sense. Animals can only have "rights" in their relationship to humans, and humans are the ones enforcing those "rights". Therefore I don't think animal rights as a term makes sense. To me, they're closer to societal rules (or laws) for interacting with animals. This also goes for pets. I don't know what you're getting at with dog's milk. Sure, I'll drink dog milk. Lots of people eat dog all over the world too. 2. Animal lives Morality is a concept that applies to humans as they deal with other humans. You can only be judged immoral by another human being. A human being slaughtering a cow isn't judged to be immoral by the cow, because the cow has no concept of morality, only survival. Therefore, the unprovoked killing of animals is not inherently immoral, like killing humans is. However, the purpose and method can be deemed immoral. 3. Eating animals is not immoral Killing an animal for food is acceptable to me, and to the vast majority of people, since it is something we are all subject to in nature. Having food preferences is also not immoral. Bears and other animals have food preferences. Therefore choosing to eat meat instead of something else is not immoral. However, I believe causing undue harm and cruelty are immoral. I don't want to contribute to a system that enables that cruelty. 4. Dominion I don't know why you linked me this. I've already seen it. I know how fucked up industrial farming is. That doesn't mean eating animals is immoral. Lastly, I disagree that they don't matter less than me. They do, I think humans are more important than animals.
- c54 4y ago
  nice, thanks for the links
- BobbyJo 4y ago
  Your first point isn't consistent as a counter argument. Parent wasn't saying "animals do it so it's fine for us too". That's obviously wrong given the broad range of behaviors animals have that would be absolutely ridiculous if a human did them. Parent was saying killing animals to eat them is not necessarily cruel. All animals die. In nature, this death is often painful and drawn out. Farming, with very little compromise, can be immensely more humane that what the average wild animal experiences. It is often not, but that can be fixed, both by the individual (buy from local less horrible farms) and by society (better regulation). All that being said, I mostly avoid meat and dairy due to concerns over animal treatment.

myshpa 4y ago

> Animals are benignly cruel to each other beyond your imagination https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/animals-eat-animals https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/animals-eat-animals > They have a relatively peaceful, predation, free life after which you consume them https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/humane-meat https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/humane-meat

amrocha 4y ago
They're not fallacies, they're fundamental disagreements. 1. No, animals do not have rights. 2. No, animal lives are not morally equal to human lives. 3. No, eating animals is not cruel. If you disagree with these then that's fine, we can have a discussion about that, but you have to understand that not everyone agrees with you on these points otherwise you'll become that annoying vegan that pushes their beliefs on everyone.
- myshpa 4y ago
  Let's ;) > No, animals do not have rights. What about pets? Let's talk about dairy industry ... why don't we switch to dog milk? Nothing wrong with dog's milk. Full of goodness, full of vitamins, full of marrowbone jelly. Lasts longer than any other milk, dog's milk. Why? No bugger'll drink it. Plus of course the advantage of dog's milk is that when it goes off, it tastes exactly the same as when it's fresh. > No, animal lives are not morally equal to human lives. https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/animals-are-not-intelligent-enough-to-matter https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/animals-are-not-intelligen... > No, eating animals is not cruel. I won't talk about this until you watch this: https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch (warning: very graphic content). Then come back and tell me that what we do to the animals is humane and morally ok. Killing (and skinning alive) living beings who don't want to die when you don't have to is not humane. > otherwise you'll become that annoying vegan I'm already there ... and I don't care. I'm using my voice for those who can't speak. And they don't matter less than you do.
  - amrocha 4y ago
    Ok, but it might get long. And again, I'm not looking for an adversarial discussion. 1. Animal Rights Animals don't have rights because rights are a human construct. Absent humans, animal rights don't make any sense. Animals can only have "rights" in their relationship to humans, and humans are the ones enforcing those "rights". Therefore I don't think animal rights as a term makes sense. To me, they're closer to societal rules (or laws) for interacting with animals. This also goes for pets. I don't know what you're getting at with dog's milk. Sure, I'll drink dog milk. Lots of people eat dog all over the world too. 2. Animal lives Morality is a concept that applies to humans as they deal with other humans. You can only be judged immoral by another human being. A human being slaughtering a cow isn't judged to be immoral by the cow, because the cow has no concept of morality, only survival. Therefore, the unprovoked killing of animals is not inherently immoral, like killing humans is. However, the purpose and method can be deemed immoral. 3. Eating animals is not immoral Killing an animal for food is acceptable to me, and to the vast majority of people, since it is something we are all subject to in nature. Having food preferences is also not immoral. Bears and other animals have food preferences. Therefore choosing to eat meat instead of something else is not immoral. However, I believe causing undue harm and cruelty are immoral. I don't want to contribute to a system that enables that cruelty. 4. Dominion I don't know why you linked me this. I've already seen it. I know how fucked up industrial farming is. That doesn't mean eating animals is immoral. Lastly, I disagree that they don't matter less than me. They do, I think humans are more important than animals.
c54 4y ago
nice, thanks for the links
BobbyJo 4y ago
Your first point isn't consistent as a counter argument. Parent wasn't saying "animals do it so it's fine for us too". That's obviously wrong given the broad range of behaviors animals have that would be absolutely ridiculous if a human did them. Parent was saying killing animals to eat them is not necessarily cruel. All animals die. In nature, this death is often painful and drawn out. Farming, with very little compromise, can be immensely more humane that what the average wild animal experiences. It is often not, but that can be fixed, both by the individual (buy from local less horrible farms) and by society (better regulation). All that being said, I mostly avoid meat and dairy due to concerns over animal treatment.