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Sorry to everyone who lost their jobs. It can feel like the end of the world and your worth. But I’ve seen throughout my career people land somewhere better. So

Sorry to everyone who lost their jobs. It can feel like the end of the world and your worth. But I’ve seen throughout my career people land somewhere better. Someone once wise told me the most important saying in the world is “this too shall pass,” which applies to all things, good and bad.

whitemary 4y ago
[flagged]
- CyberDildonics 4y ago
  You realize they can get a different job right?
  - whitemary 4y ago
    The question is whether all families can sustain healthy and dignified livelihoods. And the answer is in fact they cannot. By definition, a capitalist economy has a hard dependency on labor surplus. Remember when the Federal Reserve literally said they were raising interest rates to increase unemployment? That's why.
    - fnordpiglet 4y ago
      They couldn’t in Soviet Russia either. I also don’t consider livelihood synonymous with dignity. If you’re going to advocate, I’d fall on the UBI side before I fall on the “meaningless command economy labor for the sake of laboring”
    - CyberDildonics 4y ago
      The question is whether all families can sustain healthy and dignified livelihoods. And the answer is in fact they cannot. This story is about 17 people being fired. I'm not sure what rants about capitalism have to do with that.
- aketchum 4y ago
  where did this come from? The person you are responding to didn't say anything about Soviet workers. Also, having recently visited Cuba, while workers in a Communist society may not worry about layoffs, they still need second jobs in the black market to earn a living wage. I'm far from an expert in the Soviet Union but it seems crazy to use this as an excuse to shill the USSR
  - UncleOxidant 4y ago
    Heard a story on NPR about someone who recently went home to Cuba from Spain. Said that in the past people in Cuba would ask him to bring electronics (stuff they couldn't get in Cuba), but this time when he asked family back in Cuba what they wanted him to bring they said "Food". When he got there he picked up a hitch hiker on the drive from Havana to his home town (in the past this was very common and very safe). The woman advised him that really shouldn't pick up hitch hikers because they tend to rob you. She was a healthcare professional of some sort and said she had to do several side jobs just to survive.
- UncleOxidant 4y ago
  I worked with a guy who came up as an engineer in the Soviet Union. Back around 2014 he was laid off from a US tech company that had moved him over from Russia. He couldn't wrap his head around it. Said that in the Soviet Union there was no such thing as a layoff. If they needed to shut down some program they'd move you to another one. The whole layoff was just extremely disorienting for him - especially since the company had moved him over here only a few years prior.
  - slt2021 4y ago
    highly educated engineers were paid like 100 rubles/mo, which is slightly above minimum wage. Why lay off people, when state can afford to keep them on minimum wage? and reap the benefit of their work (rockets, weapons, tanks, nukes, etc)
    - UncleOxidant 4y ago
      Exactly, the state spent a lot of money (and/or resources) to train an engineer it would be best to keep him/her working as much as possible. Here we lay highly trained engineers off and they could be idle for several months. Lots of disadvantages to central planning, but realizing that it's expensive to keep highly educated resources idle they would try to maximize their usage. " highly educated engineers were paid like 100 rubles/mo, which is slightly above minimum wage." I think it's kind of hard to quantify based on salary alone in a system like that. People in more prestige positions like engineers & scientists had access to things that others might not have: a better apartment, better schools for their kids, shops that had a better supply of goods.
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  That’s true. They gave the platitudes as millions starved while Stalin exported food and established the gulags and lay waste to civil society. Yay! The religion bit is really off kilter, unless you think the impermanence of all things is merely a religious idea and not a fundamental aspect of all reality. After all impermanence didn’t apply in Soviet Russia? Oh yeah, it too passed. Guess not.
  - whitemary 4y ago
    All modern societies implement brutal exercises in primitive accumulation. Capitalist nations just exported their brutality to the 3rd world. Was that noble of them? I'm not seeing your point. (See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_accumulation_of_capital https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_accumulation_of_ca...) "Impermanence" is not a religious concept, but the vagaries in these platitudes are. Nobody in a capitalist society can rationalize layoffs. The best we can do is rationalize not thinking about them, which is the purpose actually served by the platitudes. Religion does the same. An actually scientific perspective would be far more useful and actionable. There is a good book on this topic: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/Engels_Socialism_Utopian_and_Scientific.pdf https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/Engels_...
- tick_tock_tick 4y ago
  Well since by and large you weren't allowed to not work in the Soviet Union being "laid off" normally meant you were being shipped off to a labor camp or being executed. Lets not pretend they didn't have millions in the gulags....
  - ModernMech 4y ago
    Unless you’re rich, you’re not allowed to not work in America either. Go ahead and try, you won’t last long. Even social support programs come with work requirements in some places [1]. Let’s not pretend America doesn’t currently imprison over two million people [2]. That’s where you end up if you’re poor and unlucky enough in America (being homeless is also criminalized in many places [3]). [1] https://www.urban.org/policy-centers/health-policy-center/projects/work-requirements-safety-net-programs https://www.urban.org/policy-centers/health-policy-center/pr... [2] https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/united-states-america https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/united-states-america [3] https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbeseq/2022/01/01/how-the-us-criminalizes-homelessness/?sh=77969a4f4869 https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbeseq/2022/01/01/how-the-us-...
- slt2021 4y ago
  Have you actually ever lived in Soviet Union? or just read Lenin's books?
- gus_massa 4y ago
  I had to search it and found this: "Soviet Union (93,548) > Employment security, termination of employment (955)" https://www.ilo.org/dyn/natlex/natlex4.detail?p_lang=en&p_isn=6643&p_count=93548&p_classification=10&p_classcount=955 https://www.ilo.org/dyn/natlex/natlex4.detail?p_lang=en&p_is... > A dismissed worker shall receive a severance indemnity equal to the average monthly wage. [...] > In case of restructuring or liquidation of the enterprise, the worker while seeking employment, retains his or her average monthly wage for up to three months, taking into account the severance indemnity.
  - whitemary 4y ago
    What does it say about families losing their sustenance? I am intentional in my phrasing. I care about people, not "jobs".
    - slt2021 4y ago
      It shows that you have never lived in soviet union and happily eat communist fairy tales. Soviet Workers were exploited and underpaid by state, there was no private property and almost no private sector. Soviet Union employed highly educated PhD rocket scientists and paid everyone minimum wage, because there was no alternative. Literally every scientist family had to grow their own potatoes and veggies at home/dachas in order to survive. Can you imagine Harvard dean growing potatoes just to survive in cold winter months? Cars were not available, you had to wait for 7 years to be allocated a slot to purchase a vehicle. Almost no selection of consumer products, everything was DIY, because the only good thing Soviet State was capable of - is building tanks and rockets (that are currently being destroyed by Ukraine Armed Forces)
      - whitemary 4y ago
        My parents both grew up in the Soviet Union. Of course there was private property haha. Individuals, mostly farmers, could even own land! Your comment is a laundry list of fun talking points, but I couldn't care less. This debate concerns families having reliable material sustenance.
TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
“Everything that arises passes away.”
- riffic 4y ago
  no one died here sheesh
  - honkler 4y ago
    17 jobs died
    - riffic 4y ago
      you'd be speaking about livelihoods then, not lives.
      - Zetice 4y ago
        I mean... not even, right? A "livelihood" is one's ability to make money in their career, not specific to an individual job. Surely these highly qualified people will find work elsewhere. So it's really not worth getting dramatic about. It's sad, but such is life. I wish the best of luck to these folks, but I doubt they're in mourning. I'm sure the YC leadership is helping them figure out next steps as we speak.
        fnordpiglet 4y ago
        Things like this are almost always traumatic regardless. We wrap ourselves and our identity in our jobs, especially ambitious and successful and highly qualified people. While objectively you’re right, it is still unnerving and unpleasant to have to find a new job and learn your contribution and value to the company was worth less than others. It’s also not the best job market for tech focused folk. I think it’s ok to feel sympathy for someone laid off.
    - ccn0p 4y ago
      <checks URL> not reddit!
gordon_freeman 4y ago
Also wanted to add: never forget that “the law of averages” is our friend when this happens. It ensures that there is always a good chance to lend somewhere if one keeps trying (submitting applications and giving interviews).

whitemary 4y ago

[flagged]

CyberDildonics 4y ago
You realize they can get a different job right?
- whitemary 4y ago
  The question is whether all families can sustain healthy and dignified livelihoods. And the answer is in fact they cannot. By definition, a capitalist economy has a hard dependency on labor surplus. Remember when the Federal Reserve literally said they were raising interest rates to increase unemployment? That's why.
  - fnordpiglet 4y ago
    They couldn’t in Soviet Russia either. I also don’t consider livelihood synonymous with dignity. If you’re going to advocate, I’d fall on the UBI side before I fall on the “meaningless command economy labor for the sake of laboring”
  - CyberDildonics 4y ago
    The question is whether all families can sustain healthy and dignified livelihoods. And the answer is in fact they cannot. This story is about 17 people being fired. I'm not sure what rants about capitalism have to do with that.
aketchum 4y ago
where did this come from? The person you are responding to didn't say anything about Soviet workers. Also, having recently visited Cuba, while workers in a Communist society may not worry about layoffs, they still need second jobs in the black market to earn a living wage. I'm far from an expert in the Soviet Union but it seems crazy to use this as an excuse to shill the USSR
- UncleOxidant 4y ago
  Heard a story on NPR about someone who recently went home to Cuba from Spain. Said that in the past people in Cuba would ask him to bring electronics (stuff they couldn't get in Cuba), but this time when he asked family back in Cuba what they wanted him to bring they said "Food". When he got there he picked up a hitch hiker on the drive from Havana to his home town (in the past this was very common and very safe). The woman advised him that really shouldn't pick up hitch hikers because they tend to rob you. She was a healthcare professional of some sort and said she had to do several side jobs just to survive.
UncleOxidant 4y ago
I worked with a guy who came up as an engineer in the Soviet Union. Back around 2014 he was laid off from a US tech company that had moved him over from Russia. He couldn't wrap his head around it. Said that in the Soviet Union there was no such thing as a layoff. If they needed to shut down some program they'd move you to another one. The whole layoff was just extremely disorienting for him - especially since the company had moved him over here only a few years prior.
- slt2021 4y ago
  highly educated engineers were paid like 100 rubles/mo, which is slightly above minimum wage. Why lay off people, when state can afford to keep them on minimum wage? and reap the benefit of their work (rockets, weapons, tanks, nukes, etc)
  - UncleOxidant 4y ago
    Exactly, the state spent a lot of money (and/or resources) to train an engineer it would be best to keep him/her working as much as possible. Here we lay highly trained engineers off and they could be idle for several months. Lots of disadvantages to central planning, but realizing that it's expensive to keep highly educated resources idle they would try to maximize their usage. " highly educated engineers were paid like 100 rubles/mo, which is slightly above minimum wage." I think it's kind of hard to quantify based on salary alone in a system like that. People in more prestige positions like engineers & scientists had access to things that others might not have: a better apartment, better schools for their kids, shops that had a better supply of goods.
fnordpiglet 4y ago
That’s true. They gave the platitudes as millions starved while Stalin exported food and established the gulags and lay waste to civil society. Yay! The religion bit is really off kilter, unless you think the impermanence of all things is merely a religious idea and not a fundamental aspect of all reality. After all impermanence didn’t apply in Soviet Russia? Oh yeah, it too passed. Guess not.
- whitemary 4y ago
  All modern societies implement brutal exercises in primitive accumulation. Capitalist nations just exported their brutality to the 3rd world. Was that noble of them? I'm not seeing your point. (See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_accumulation_of_capital https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_accumulation_of_ca...) "Impermanence" is not a religious concept, but the vagaries in these platitudes are. Nobody in a capitalist society can rationalize layoffs. The best we can do is rationalize not thinking about them, which is the purpose actually served by the platitudes. Religion does the same. An actually scientific perspective would be far more useful and actionable. There is a good book on this topic: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/Engels_Socialism_Utopian_and_Scientific.pdf https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/Engels_...
tick_tock_tick 4y ago
Well since by and large you weren't allowed to not work in the Soviet Union being "laid off" normally meant you were being shipped off to a labor camp or being executed. Lets not pretend they didn't have millions in the gulags....
- ModernMech 4y ago
  Unless you’re rich, you’re not allowed to not work in America either. Go ahead and try, you won’t last long. Even social support programs come with work requirements in some places [1]. Let’s not pretend America doesn’t currently imprison over two million people [2]. That’s where you end up if you’re poor and unlucky enough in America (being homeless is also criminalized in many places [3]). [1] https://www.urban.org/policy-centers/health-policy-center/projects/work-requirements-safety-net-programs https://www.urban.org/policy-centers/health-policy-center/pr... [2] https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/united-states-america https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/united-states-america [3] https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbeseq/2022/01/01/how-the-us-criminalizes-homelessness/?sh=77969a4f4869 https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbeseq/2022/01/01/how-the-us-...
slt2021 4y ago
Have you actually ever lived in Soviet Union? or just read Lenin's books?
gus_massa 4y ago
I had to search it and found this: "Soviet Union (93,548) > Employment security, termination of employment (955)" https://www.ilo.org/dyn/natlex/natlex4.detail?p_lang=en&p_isn=6643&p_count=93548&p_classification=10&p_classcount=955 https://www.ilo.org/dyn/natlex/natlex4.detail?p_lang=en&p_is... > A dismissed worker shall receive a severance indemnity equal to the average monthly wage. [...] > In case of restructuring or liquidation of the enterprise, the worker while seeking employment, retains his or her average monthly wage for up to three months, taking into account the severance indemnity.
- whitemary 4y ago
  What does it say about families losing their sustenance? I am intentional in my phrasing. I care about people, not "jobs".
  - slt2021 4y ago
    It shows that you have never lived in soviet union and happily eat communist fairy tales. Soviet Workers were exploited and underpaid by state, there was no private property and almost no private sector. Soviet Union employed highly educated PhD rocket scientists and paid everyone minimum wage, because there was no alternative. Literally every scientist family had to grow their own potatoes and veggies at home/dachas in order to survive. Can you imagine Harvard dean growing potatoes just to survive in cold winter months? Cars were not available, you had to wait for 7 years to be allocated a slot to purchase a vehicle. Almost no selection of consumer products, everything was DIY, because the only good thing Soviet State was capable of - is building tanks and rockets (that are currently being destroyed by Ukraine Armed Forces)
    - whitemary 4y ago
      My parents both grew up in the Soviet Union. Of course there was private property haha. Individuals, mostly farmers, could even own land! Your comment is a laundry list of fun talking points, but I couldn't care less. This debate concerns families having reliable material sustenance.

TedDoesntTalk 4y ago

“Everything that arises passes away.”

riffic 4y ago
no one died here sheesh
- honkler 4y ago
  17 jobs died
  - riffic 4y ago
    you'd be speaking about livelihoods then, not lives.
    - Zetice 4y ago
      I mean... not even, right? A "livelihood" is one's ability to make money in their career, not specific to an individual job. Surely these highly qualified people will find work elsewhere. So it's really not worth getting dramatic about. It's sad, but such is life. I wish the best of luck to these folks, but I doubt they're in mourning. I'm sure the YC leadership is helping them figure out next steps as we speak.
      - fnordpiglet 4y ago
        Things like this are almost always traumatic regardless. We wrap ourselves and our identity in our jobs, especially ambitious and successful and highly qualified people. While objectively you’re right, it is still unnerving and unpleasant to have to find a new job and learn your contribution and value to the company was worth less than others. It’s also not the best job market for tech focused folk. I think it’s ok to feel sympathy for someone laid off.
  - ccn0p 4y ago
    <checks URL> not reddit!

gordon_freeman 4y ago

Also wanted to add: never forget that “the law of averages” is our friend when this happens. It ensures that there is always a good chance to lend somewhere if one keeps trying (submitting applications and giving interviews).