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All other languages: use whatever packages you like. You’ll be fine. Python: we’re going to force all packages from all projects and repos to be installed in a

All other languages: use whatever packages you like. You’ll be fine. Python: we’re going to force all packages from all projects and repos to be installed in a shared global environment, but since nobody actually wants that we will allow you to circumvent that by creating “virtual” environments you can maintain and have to deal with instead. Also remember to activate it before starting your editor or else lulz. And don’t use the same editor instance for multiple projects. Are you crazy??? Also: Python “just works”, unlike all those other silly languages. Somebody IMO needs to get off their high horse. I can’t believe Python users are defending this nonsense for real. This must be a severe case of Stockholm-syndrome.

rad_gruchalski 4y ago
Yeah, how does it go? There’s at least one obvious way to do something? Python… makes me anxious. I don’t mind writing Python but setting it up is crazy.
frou_dh 4y ago
Python is over 30 years old so it's hardly surprising that it's got plenty baggage in at least some areas.
analog31 4y ago
I'm a long time Python user, and I don't defend virtual environments at all. I just don't use them. Granted, I'm a so called "scientific" programmer, and am not writing production code. I haven't run into the problems that are solved by virtual environments, nor have my colleagues. Sure, it means I'm probably living in a bubble, but it may be a bubble shared by a lot of people. Python is the first language that I've used, where the user community is a major attraction, resulting in significant inertia. Replacing Python requires a new language and a new community. Also, the tools that helped build that community, such as Google and Stackoverflow, have (by some accounts) deteriorated. If package management is that bad, then yeah, time to switch languages. No high horse here. Like Sancho Panza, I have to be content with an ass. ;-)
mixmastamyk 4y ago
Basically the point is to avoid the system python, which is not hard. One needs some sys-ad skills to understand what is going on however; unfortunately sounds like they are short supply. I don't do anything you mention, so there must be a simpler way.
- epgui 4y ago
  It may not be hard to avoid system python, but that doesn't mean it's not also easy to mess everything up in 99 different barely-reproducible ways. I'm perfectly comfortable setting up python for projects I work on (with maybe 2-3 different methods), but that doesn't mean it's user-friendly or beginner-friendly. It doesn't mean the abstractions aren't taxing. I really agree with a lot of the criticism here.
  - mixmastamyk 4y ago
    "Mess everything up" is not a real state, it can always be fixed. However it might be faster, if you're using source control and short on time, to simply delete the folder(s), then re-clone and reinstall. Beginner-friendly is to avoid all this complexity in the first place. I think it's a mistake to mention venvs to newbies until they are comfortable with python, paths, links, and environment vars.
pnt12 4y ago
What an awful take. Python is 30 years old and back then system packages were more common, that's it. It's been a bumpy ride and I'd prefer if there was a standard manager, but the community has produced some decent ones. The python community has always tried to make devs happy. Pip has an amazing number of libraries. Virtual envs were included into the standard tools. Pipenv was integrated in the python github organization. The org doesn't hate virtual envs!

rad_gruchalski 4y ago

Yeah, how does it go? There’s at least one obvious way to do something? Python… makes me anxious. I don’t mind writing Python but setting it up is crazy.

frou_dh 4y ago

Python is over 30 years old so it's hardly surprising that it's got plenty baggage in at least some areas.

analog31 4y ago

I'm a long time Python user, and I don't defend virtual environments at all. I just don't use them. Granted, I'm a so called "scientific" programmer, and am not writing production code. I haven't run into the problems that are solved by virtual environments, nor have my colleagues. Sure, it means I'm probably living in a bubble, but it may be a bubble shared by a lot of people. Python is the first language that I've used, where the user community is a major attraction, resulting in significant inertia. Replacing Python requires a new language and a new community. Also, the tools that helped build that community, such as Google and Stackoverflow, have (by some accounts) deteriorated. If package management is that bad, then yeah, time to switch languages. No high horse here. Like Sancho Panza, I have to be content with an ass. ;-)

mixmastamyk 4y ago

Basically the point is to avoid the system python, which is not hard. One needs some sys-ad skills to understand what is going on however; unfortunately sounds like they are short supply. I don't do anything you mention, so there must be a simpler way.

epgui 4y ago
It may not be hard to avoid system python, but that doesn't mean it's not also easy to mess everything up in 99 different barely-reproducible ways. I'm perfectly comfortable setting up python for projects I work on (with maybe 2-3 different methods), but that doesn't mean it's user-friendly or beginner-friendly. It doesn't mean the abstractions aren't taxing. I really agree with a lot of the criticism here.
- mixmastamyk 4y ago
  "Mess everything up" is not a real state, it can always be fixed. However it might be faster, if you're using source control and short on time, to simply delete the folder(s), then re-clone and reinstall. Beginner-friendly is to avoid all this complexity in the first place. I think it's a mistake to mention venvs to newbies until they are comfortable with python, paths, links, and environment vars.

pnt12 4y ago

What an awful take. Python is 30 years old and back then system packages were more common, that's it. It's been a bumpy ride and I'd prefer if there was a standard manager, but the community has produced some decent ones. The python community has always tried to make devs happy. Pip has an amazing number of libraries. Virtual envs were included into the standard tools. Pipenv was integrated in the python github organization. The org doesn't hate virtual envs!