6 ms·

If it were really that simple, surely all these other solutions wouldn't exist?

buildbot 4y ago
Not saying Conda et. al don't solve problems, especially in specific cases, but they also add them in my opinion.
Spivak 4y ago
So there's two notions of simple. Simple in the sense that it's actually simple, the software you need can be installed with pip install with precompiled binaries for your platform when necessary it supports Python 3.something+, and all it's dependencies are either >= version or the version is >= x.y <= x+1.0 Then there's simple as in the software is actually incredibly useful but is an absolute nightmare of complicated dependency trees where only specific pinned minor versions work together, you need multiple incompatible compiler toolchains and distro packages, it only works if you have CUDA, precompiled binaries exist for some but not all and if you use the precompiled binaries then it changes the dependency story, if you want jupyter support that's a whole different thing AHHHHHHHHHHHHH In that case some people with more time than sanity said fuck it we'll make it work and conda was born. For me it's a lifesaver when you want to use a piece of software but I wouldn't ever dare deploy production software with it without it being strongly isolated from everything else.
zzzeek 4y ago
it really is that simple conda exists because it deals with an entirely different package registry and is a whole distro on its own (I dont know why people need that either, my vague impression is that scence-y types want complete pushbutton installation, typing a command == fail, I guess, I dont know). poetry exists because it does some kind of automated version management thing (as did pipenv), that I'm sure is nice but not something I've ever needed, but the buzz got out and it took over, people who have never typed "virtualenv" use poetry and they have no idea why.
- teruakohatu 4y ago
  > vague impression is that scence-y types Because often python is only one part of the puzzle, we also need a variety of third party libraries and maybe R as well (along with R packages). And we would rather not have to explain to another researcher how to install it all.
- squeaky-clean 4y ago
  Conda is very nice for people who just want to write some python and not need to learn about the ecosystem or weird issues like some Visual Studio dependency not being installed to get scipy to compile on Windows or whatever. Like someone coming from R to Python. But aside from that situation I agree with you.
- pletnes 4y ago
  Before conda, you needed a C and a fortran compiler, a BLAS and LAPACK installation, and various build tools, to install scipy. Scipy is one - 1 - dependency used in science and engineering. The pain used to be massive. Now, we’re complaining about the existence of 2 high quality (not perfect) alternatives, and pip (part of the official python distro) can install tensorflow etc, GPU libs included, with a oneliner.
  - Doxin 4y ago
    These days with wheels there is 0 reason why there can't be binary pip packages for any of those. Definitely used to be a problem though.
- jayvius 4y ago
  > (I dont know why people need that either, my vague impression is that scence-y types want complete pushbutton installation, typing a command == fail, I guess, I dont know). Essentially, yes, and justifiably so. Try installing science-y Python packages on Windows written in C. When conda was created in 2012 this meant installing Visual Studio 2005 (for Python 2.7) which was hard to find on Microsoft's own website even back then.
  - 4y ago
schainks 4y ago
If software were that simple, surely all these other languages wouldn't exist?
- bobbylarrybobby 4y ago
  Right, software is anything but simple
crabbone 4y ago
Any program with real world application solves some problem. That's not the point. The point is in how does it do it. And when it comes to conda... it's like MS Outlook on steroids. I cannot really think about a better way to describe it. It's like a movie that can be so bad that it's actually good.
hot_gril 4y ago
Idk, I still have no idea why yarn exists when there's npm.

Not saying Conda et. al don't solve problems, especially in specific cases, but they also add them in my opinion.

So there's two notions of simple. Simple in the sense that it's actually simple, the software you need can be installed with pip install with precompiled binaries for your platform when necessary it supports Python 3.something+, and all it's dependencies are either >= version or the version is >= x.y <= x+1.0 Then there's simple as in the software is actually incredibly useful but is an absolute nightmare of complicated dependency trees where only specific pinned minor versions work together, you need multiple incompatible compiler toolchains and distro packages, it only works if you have CUDA, precompiled binaries exist for some but not all and if you use the precompiled binaries then it changes the dependency story, if you want jupyter support that's a whole different thing AHHHHHHHHHHHHH In that case some people with more time than sanity said fuck it we'll make it work and conda was born. For me it's a lifesaver when you want to use a piece of software but I wouldn't ever dare deploy production software with it without it being strongly isolated from everything else.

zzzeek 4y ago

it really is that simple conda exists because it deals with an entirely different package registry and is a whole distro on its own (I dont know why people need that either, my vague impression is that scence-y types want complete pushbutton installation, typing a command == fail, I guess, I dont know). poetry exists because it does some kind of automated version management thing (as did pipenv), that I'm sure is nice but not something I've ever needed, but the buzz got out and it took over, people who have never typed "virtualenv" use poetry and they have no idea why.

teruakohatu 4y ago
> vague impression is that scence-y types Because often python is only one part of the puzzle, we also need a variety of third party libraries and maybe R as well (along with R packages). And we would rather not have to explain to another researcher how to install it all.
squeaky-clean 4y ago
Conda is very nice for people who just want to write some python and not need to learn about the ecosystem or weird issues like some Visual Studio dependency not being installed to get scipy to compile on Windows or whatever. Like someone coming from R to Python. But aside from that situation I agree with you.
pletnes 4y ago
Before conda, you needed a C and a fortran compiler, a BLAS and LAPACK installation, and various build tools, to install scipy. Scipy is one - 1 - dependency used in science and engineering. The pain used to be massive. Now, we’re complaining about the existence of 2 high quality (not perfect) alternatives, and pip (part of the official python distro) can install tensorflow etc, GPU libs included, with a oneliner.
- Doxin 4y ago
  These days with wheels there is 0 reason why there can't be binary pip packages for any of those. Definitely used to be a problem though.
jayvius 4y ago
> (I dont know why people need that either, my vague impression is that scence-y types want complete pushbutton installation, typing a command == fail, I guess, I dont know). Essentially, yes, and justifiably so. Try installing science-y Python packages on Windows written in C. When conda was created in 2012 this meant installing Visual Studio 2005 (for Python 2.7) which was hard to find on Microsoft's own website even back then.
- 4y ago

schainks 4y ago

If software were that simple, surely all these other languages wouldn't exist?

bobbylarrybobby 4y ago
Right, software is anything but simple

crabbone 4y ago

Any program with real world application solves some problem. That's not the point. The point is in how does it do it. And when it comes to conda... it's like MS Outlook on steroids. I cannot really think about a better way to describe it. It's like a movie that can be so bad that it's actually good.

hot_gril 4y ago

Idk, I still have no idea why yarn exists when there's npm.