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Well you are all over the place here. I can see that you hold a passionately held position on this. I do not. >It was to defend western Europe against Soviet e

Well you are all over the place here. I can see that you hold a passionately held position on this. I do not. >It was to defend western Europe against Soviet expansion.NATO has never attacked Russia correct and correct, never said they did. >and the economic downfall was of their own doing. well, now that isn't quite correct is it? We went hard as hell after them and used all manner of financial sanctions and threats of sanctions on other countries to decimate their trade. So, we helped a little in its breakdown, right? And that was the real point of NATO. No one was or is ever going to full on attack Russia when it can end most of the Earth. >do you not agree Russia has invaded Ukraine? From Ukraine's perspective, yes! From Russia's perspective, no! >You stop future invasions with security guarantees from other countries, and using sanctions to make war cost more than it's worth. Were those not already in place? >Although a lot of their attacks lacks precision and are purposefully "erratic", killing civilians as part of their terror strategy. I mean, I agree with you, however I am curious of a war where this did not happen? The US blew up entire fucking cities of people and we celebrate it! In your mind has the Ukraine only ever used precision strikes to take out military targets and people? >Does this mean that every country on the planet deserves to have their schools and hospitals bombed, or their territory occupied by rapists and murderers? There's a big difference between being faultless in all circumstances and being invaded by a cruel army firing thousands of artillery shells each day. No it doesn't. But I am curious if you can identify a war where this did not happen (from the perspective of the one getting BTFO'd, not the one winning, they always think they are righteous.)

sorenjan 4y ago
> I can see that you hold a passionately held position on this. I do not. I live within range of Russia's Iskander missiles and see reports from the war each day. Russia is the local bully that everyone's afraid of. Our military basically exists for one reason, to stop a Russian invasion. > We went hard as hell after them and used all manner of financial sanctions and threats of sanctions on other countries to decimate their trade. So, we helped a little in its breakdown, right? And that was the real point of NATO. Speaking of being all over the place, is this in any way relevant to the current war? Russia has been given lots of chances of integrating their economy with the rest of the world since the fall of Soviet, they're not acting out of economic necessity. > From Ukraine's perspective, yes! From Russia's perspective, no! Then what were their column on their way to Kiev doing? They can call it whatever they want, nobody makes it illegal to call it a war if they don't actually think it's a war. > Were those not already in place? No, only a small part of the current sanctions were in place before the full scale invasion, and plenty of western companies has since withdrawn from the Russian market. As for the security guarantees, I'm not aware of any except the Budapest memorandum, which didn't really work out that well. > The US blew up entire fucking cities of people and we celebrate it! In your mind has the Ukraine only ever used precision strikes to take out military targets and people? I've never seen anyone celebrate the destruction of entire cities in a modern war where precision weapons where available. I'm sure Ukraine has made all kinds of strikes, but I don't consider them the same since they're the ones defending themselves. They've made a few excursions into Russia with helicopters and drones, I don't think I've seen any reports of a single civilian casualty from those. Meanwhile there were bodies of executed civilians lying on the streets and buried in shallow mass graves after Russian troops left certain places. > But I am curious if you can identify a war where this did not happen That's just proving my point IMO. Wars are horrible, and Russia are the ones that started this one. Russia can end it whenever they want, but they don't want to, so they're responsible for all the misery happening in both their neighboring country and their own right now. And the rest of us don't want war to succeed. Russia understands one thing, and that is power. They look down on what they consider to be weakness, and consider themselves to be better than others. Russian propaganda calls this a culture war against western ideas, Putin actually mentioned trans people in one of his speeches about this war that supposedly is about NATO. “You probe with bayonets: if you find mush, you push. If you find steel, you withdraw” ― Vladimir Ilich Lenin
SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
>From Ukraine's perspective, yes! From Russia's perspective, no! (Russia has invaded not Ukraine) This is some premium-quality BS right here. You're mistaking disinformation for a sincerely held perspective. But as pointed out, when the armoured columns are over the border and halfway to Kiev, then you can't really pretend that it's not an invasion, and expect to be believed. We're not buying it, and you should be ashamed of trying to sell it.
- mhuffman 4y ago
  I'm going to take your argument as a sincere argument and not an ad hominem attack that is sounds like. I can tell from your comment that you have a specific perspective on this. I can assure you that I do not. But, if you asked someone high up in the Russian military do you think they would tell you that they invaded Ukraine? I am going to suggest they might say that they read the writing on the wall and sent early armaments to protect themselves. I understand that you would think this is a lie. But, I am just saying from their perspective they would say they have done nothing wrong and are protecting themselves. Ukraine, would say they were minding their own business and Russia attacked them after multiple threats for no reason. That is not to say I think Russia is telling the truth. Just that from their perspective they are not doing anything wrong. And as a side note, even if you are passionate about a subject it is a more powerful argument to attack the idea, not the person. That is childish ... although I will admit it used daily for political arguments in the US.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
    Thank you for that large helping of word salad. My advice to you is to learn to think and write clearly, call out BS when you hear it, and not interpret that as "ad hominem attack". I don't know what you mean "by specific perspective" that I have whereas you pretend objectivity. But, being neutral in situations of injustice is not "objectivity", it is choosing the side of the oppressor. As to the idea Russia would say "they have done nothing wrong and are protecting themselves" well, they would say that, wouldn't they? You do not have to take it at face value after the facts on the ground clash with it. The idea that Russia had to do it (send troops across the border) to protect themselves is nonsense, not even logically consistent with what you said before: "It didn't happen, and you made me do it." It's the logic of a narcistic abuser. A full-scale invasion clearly happened and is ongoing. You repeat "from their perspective they are not doing anything wrong" without addressing that this is not a factual perspective, it is a disinformation. I never said and Ukraine will not say ,that Russia attacked "for no reason", just that the reasons are selfish, greedy, cruel, undemocratic and intolerant; and not as you present them.

sorenjan 4y ago

> I can see that you hold a passionately held position on this. I do not. I live within range of Russia's Iskander missiles and see reports from the war each day. Russia is the local bully that everyone's afraid of. Our military basically exists for one reason, to stop a Russian invasion. > We went hard as hell after them and used all manner of financial sanctions and threats of sanctions on other countries to decimate their trade. So, we helped a little in its breakdown, right? And that was the real point of NATO. Speaking of being all over the place, is this in any way relevant to the current war? Russia has been given lots of chances of integrating their economy with the rest of the world since the fall of Soviet, they're not acting out of economic necessity. > From Ukraine's perspective, yes! From Russia's perspective, no! Then what were their column on their way to Kiev doing? They can call it whatever they want, nobody makes it illegal to call it a war if they don't actually think it's a war. > Were those not already in place? No, only a small part of the current sanctions were in place before the full scale invasion, and plenty of western companies has since withdrawn from the Russian market. As for the security guarantees, I'm not aware of any except the Budapest memorandum, which didn't really work out that well. > The US blew up entire fucking cities of people and we celebrate it! In your mind has the Ukraine only ever used precision strikes to take out military targets and people? I've never seen anyone celebrate the destruction of entire cities in a modern war where precision weapons where available. I'm sure Ukraine has made all kinds of strikes, but I don't consider them the same since they're the ones defending themselves. They've made a few excursions into Russia with helicopters and drones, I don't think I've seen any reports of a single civilian casualty from those. Meanwhile there were bodies of executed civilians lying on the streets and buried in shallow mass graves after Russian troops left certain places. > But I am curious if you can identify a war where this did not happen That's just proving my point IMO. Wars are horrible, and Russia are the ones that started this one. Russia can end it whenever they want, but they don't want to, so they're responsible for all the misery happening in both their neighboring country and their own right now. And the rest of us don't want war to succeed. Russia understands one thing, and that is power. They look down on what they consider to be weakness, and consider themselves to be better than others. Russian propaganda calls this a culture war against western ideas, Putin actually mentioned trans people in one of his speeches about this war that supposedly is about NATO. “You probe with bayonets: if you find mush, you push. If you find steel, you withdraw” ― Vladimir Ilich Lenin

SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago

>From Ukraine's perspective, yes! From Russia's perspective, no! (Russia has invaded not Ukraine) This is some premium-quality BS right here. You're mistaking disinformation for a sincerely held perspective. But as pointed out, when the armoured columns are over the border and halfway to Kiev, then you can't really pretend that it's not an invasion, and expect to be believed. We're not buying it, and you should be ashamed of trying to sell it.

mhuffman 4y ago
I'm going to take your argument as a sincere argument and not an ad hominem attack that is sounds like. I can tell from your comment that you have a specific perspective on this. I can assure you that I do not. But, if you asked someone high up in the Russian military do you think they would tell you that they invaded Ukraine? I am going to suggest they might say that they read the writing on the wall and sent early armaments to protect themselves. I understand that you would think this is a lie. But, I am just saying from their perspective they would say they have done nothing wrong and are protecting themselves. Ukraine, would say they were minding their own business and Russia attacked them after multiple threats for no reason. That is not to say I think Russia is telling the truth. Just that from their perspective they are not doing anything wrong. And as a side note, even if you are passionate about a subject it is a more powerful argument to attack the idea, not the person. That is childish ... although I will admit it used daily for political arguments in the US.
- SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
  Thank you for that large helping of word salad. My advice to you is to learn to think and write clearly, call out BS when you hear it, and not interpret that as "ad hominem attack". I don't know what you mean "by specific perspective" that I have whereas you pretend objectivity. But, being neutral in situations of injustice is not "objectivity", it is choosing the side of the oppressor. As to the idea Russia would say "they have done nothing wrong and are protecting themselves" well, they would say that, wouldn't they? You do not have to take it at face value after the facts on the ground clash with it. The idea that Russia had to do it (send troops across the border) to protect themselves is nonsense, not even logically consistent with what you said before: "It didn't happen, and you made me do it." It's the logic of a narcistic abuser. A full-scale invasion clearly happened and is ongoing. You repeat "from their perspective they are not doing anything wrong" without addressing that this is not a factual perspective, it is a disinformation. I never said and Ukraine will not say ,that Russia attacked "for no reason", just that the reasons are selfish, greedy, cruel, undemocratic and intolerant; and not as you present them.