4 ms·

Fair point, I should do a better job of communicating the unit sizes. Heat pump capacity varies as a function of outdoor temps. A standard unit is rated at 47F

by cmui 4y ago

Fair point, I should do a better job of communicating the unit sizes. Heat pump capacity varies as a function of outdoor temps. A standard unit is rated at 47F but the sizes I'm showing are at 5F (cold climate conditions). Also for this price you get the air quality module which does HEPA, fresh air intake and humidification and a smart thermostat that's designed to fully optimize this heat pump system.

cosmosisjones 4y ago
so what about places like Duluth, MN where it can be -20F ambient, then -40F to -50F with a windchill for several weeks of the year?
- mikeyouse 4y ago
  It's not designed for those areas. The world is plenty large, they don't need to accommodate every single address in the country to have a viable or useful product.
- GauntletWizard 4y ago
  I would be very interested in stats on the gradient of home energy use by average outdoor temperature. I imagine that "Places where it gets too cold for heat pumps" represent a large percentage of heat usage; That is, there's (made up numbers) 10% of the population living in those areas, but they represent 90% of heating energy use. If every home that could use your heat pumps year-round installed one and used it exclusively, what's the upper bound on energy saved? If every home across the country installed one and used it primarily (whenever it was warm enough outside), what would be the energy savings? Not to disparage, I'm certain it's still significant, but I'm curious to quantify it.
  - mikeyouse 4y ago
    This is quantified by "heating degree days" and I don't think your intuition is correct here. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/United_States_Heating_Degree_Day_map%2C_1961-1990.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/United_S... The difference between "Can use a heat pump" and "can't" is only maybe 10º or 15º. The coldest places are only ~20% colder than much more populated areas with millions of more residents. Metro Boston has around 5 million people -- that's more than 3x as many as who live in North Dakota and South Dakota combined. Their climate is cold and they get around 6,000 HDD every winter compared to the frigid upper plains who average something like 8,000 or 8,500. So 1.3x more heat requirement per person but spread out across 1/3 as many people. Not to mention all of e.g. Chicago, Denver, Des Moines, Cleveland, Detroit, New York, the rest of New England, etc. etc. where heat pumps do just fine.
- elil17 4y ago
  Windchill doesn't effect, and you can handle small dips below -15 F (like for a couple hours at night) because the house has some thermal mass. However, Duluth, MN is right at the edge of being too cold for this heat pump (99th percentile cold temperature in the coldest month is -15.16 F). If I was in Duluth and was considering a heat pump, I'd want to make sure I had an electric furnace or some space heaters as a backup. However, it would still be worth it to get the heat pump because you'd be able to heat your home much more efficiently/cheaply >99% of the time.
  - hedora 4y ago
    Even in coastal California, most ducted heat pumps have a built in electric or gas furnace. I imagine anything sold in areas where it actually gets cold will as well.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
      Here at 7000' near Santa Fe, I know dozens of homes, many new construction, that are heat pump only to all effects and purposes (i.e. they may also have fireplaces but these are not part of the normal heating systems nor part of any plan for the 0F-5F winter nights we can get. Heat pumps can handle things by themselves down to around -10F to -15F, if correctly sized and installed.
      - hedora 4y ago
        What brand? Most of the low temperature ones I’ve seen include resistive heating. At some point the COP of the heat pump approaches 1. Also, having heat to -15, then switching to no heat isn’t ideal.
        PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
        Mitsubishi. Their "extreme" models do not switch to resistive heating, but deal with the critical problem at very low temps: partial freezing of the refridgerant. They divert some of the heat into fully melting the refridgerant. This reduces the COP but keeps them functioning.
- ROTMetro 4y ago
  Custom ground source heat pump my friend :) side benefit (energy cost) free hot water.
  - cmui 4y ago
    Ground source is great! (if you can afford the install).
- throitallaway 4y ago
  Windchill is irrelevant here, it only indicates what the temperature feels like to warm blooded mammals.
  - doctoboggan 4y ago
    windchill as a concept can be applied to all evaporative cooling systems.
    - 16bytes 4y ago
      Heat pumps are not an evaporative system. You can't lower the temperature across a gradient lower than the fluid temperature, no matter how fast that fluid is moving. You can cool things down faster, but you can't go lower. So if it's 10F, a 5F heat pump will work equally well at 0mph wind and 30mph.
      - cmui 4y ago
        You got it. A brief technical aside, heat pump performance is hurt by frosting, which happens at intermediate outdoor temps (~35-50F). Basically the outdoor coil is both below freezing, and below the dewpoint of the air. The frost forms a thermal insulating layer around the coil, and intermittently you have to run a defrost cycle to melt off the ice. This is a small hit to system efficiency.
      - doctoboggan 4y ago
        Yes, I never claimed they were. I was responding to the idea that only warm-blooded mammals have the concept of wind-chill. Any system that takes advantage of evaporative cooling will have the concept of wind chill. A "swamp cooler" is one example.
  - nkurz 4y ago
    I was tempted to give a similar answer, but I'm not so sure it's irrelevant. Yes, the windchill won't affect the energy efficiency of the heatpump. But it will affect the rate at which the house loses heat, and thus the BTU's the system needs to provide to maintain a temperature. If the heatpump has been exactly sized to maintain a house temperature of (say) 70F at the expected winter low, adding a strong wind on the exterior of the house seems like it might make for a chilly morning. The effect isn't as strong as it is for bare skin at body temp, and hence the exact numbers will be off, but it's still there, right?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- triceratops 4y ago
  Not every product is for everyone.
turtlebits 4y ago
If you want to control air quality, you do this with a separate fresh air intake, not with a ducted furnace. Many older homes have furnaces taking air from sub-optimal spaces such as garages or crawl spaces.
- heatpumpfan 4y ago
  [dead]
- cmui 4y ago
  Great point. You don't source from the same spot you source combustion air - you run a separate fresh air intake. This system has HEPA, fresh air intake and humidity control packaged/integrated together well. The fresh air wouldn't come from a garage or crawl space, but from the outdoors via a dedicated (small) duct.
sabareesh 4y ago
Do you have product specification sheet like this https://images.thdstatic.com/catalog/pdfImages/96/96c34548-a354-49c1-8e73-6661e493ada3.pdf https://images.thdstatic.com/catalog/pdfImages/96/96c34548-a... You say 5f but I dont see any reference to that on your site.
sosodev 4y ago
When you say it's rated at 47F do you mean its efficiency is measured at 47F? If so, does that matter much? The unit linked in the post you're replying to states that it can operate as low as -13F.
- cmui 4y ago
  Talking about capacity for heat pumps is tricky, their available heating power changes continuously as a function of outdoor temperature. The convention is to refer to the available capacity at 47F for 'normal' heat pump and the capacity at 5F for a cold climate heat pump.
  - sosodev 4y ago
    Makes sense. How much does their capacity typically change over their operating temperature range?
    - malfist 4y ago
      Heat pumps extract heat, either from the house, or from the outside air. When heating, it pulls it from the outside air. As it gets colder, there is less heat to pull out. Typically heat pumps will still keep pulling heat at >100% efficiency nearly into the negatives, but the amount they're extracting isn't enough to keep up with the heat loss of the house. Heat lost of the house is a factor of insulation, surface area and heat gradient. It's a lot harder to keep a house at 68F when it's 5F outside than it is when it is 50F. So when it's cold out, you need more heat generation, and there's less heat to pull from the air. That's why heat pumps have backup auxiliary heat.
danielmarkbruce 4y ago
First - this thing is awesome so nice going. Second - yes, significantly better communication on the website is going to help. Some economic analysis (the section of savings is ambiguous) with specifics, specifics on how it would look with financing, for different house sizes etc would get a lot of people across the hump. It's quite unclear to me if this thing makes sense financially. Third - nice going, this really is awesome.

by cmui 4y ago

cosmosisjones 4y ago

so what about places like Duluth, MN where it can be -20F ambient, then -40F to -50F with a windchill for several weeks of the year?

mikeyouse 4y ago
It's not designed for those areas. The world is plenty large, they don't need to accommodate every single address in the country to have a viable or useful product.
GauntletWizard 4y ago
I would be very interested in stats on the gradient of home energy use by average outdoor temperature. I imagine that "Places where it gets too cold for heat pumps" represent a large percentage of heat usage; That is, there's (made up numbers) 10% of the population living in those areas, but they represent 90% of heating energy use. If every home that could use your heat pumps year-round installed one and used it exclusively, what's the upper bound on energy saved? If every home across the country installed one and used it primarily (whenever it was warm enough outside), what would be the energy savings? Not to disparage, I'm certain it's still significant, but I'm curious to quantify it.
- mikeyouse 4y ago
  This is quantified by "heating degree days" and I don't think your intuition is correct here. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/United_States_Heating_Degree_Day_map%2C_1961-1990.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/United_S... The difference between "Can use a heat pump" and "can't" is only maybe 10º or 15º. The coldest places are only ~20% colder than much more populated areas with millions of more residents. Metro Boston has around 5 million people -- that's more than 3x as many as who live in North Dakota and South Dakota combined. Their climate is cold and they get around 6,000 HDD every winter compared to the frigid upper plains who average something like 8,000 or 8,500. So 1.3x more heat requirement per person but spread out across 1/3 as many people. Not to mention all of e.g. Chicago, Denver, Des Moines, Cleveland, Detroit, New York, the rest of New England, etc. etc. where heat pumps do just fine.
elil17 4y ago
Windchill doesn't effect, and you can handle small dips below -15 F (like for a couple hours at night) because the house has some thermal mass. However, Duluth, MN is right at the edge of being too cold for this heat pump (99th percentile cold temperature in the coldest month is -15.16 F). If I was in Duluth and was considering a heat pump, I'd want to make sure I had an electric furnace or some space heaters as a backup. However, it would still be worth it to get the heat pump because you'd be able to heat your home much more efficiently/cheaply >99% of the time.
- hedora 4y ago
  Even in coastal California, most ducted heat pumps have a built in electric or gas furnace. I imagine anything sold in areas where it actually gets cold will as well.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
    Here at 7000' near Santa Fe, I know dozens of homes, many new construction, that are heat pump only to all effects and purposes (i.e. they may also have fireplaces but these are not part of the normal heating systems nor part of any plan for the 0F-5F winter nights we can get. Heat pumps can handle things by themselves down to around -10F to -15F, if correctly sized and installed.
    - hedora 4y ago
      What brand? Most of the low temperature ones I’ve seen include resistive heating. At some point the COP of the heat pump approaches 1. Also, having heat to -15, then switching to no heat isn’t ideal.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
        Mitsubishi. Their "extreme" models do not switch to resistive heating, but deal with the critical problem at very low temps: partial freezing of the refridgerant. They divert some of the heat into fully melting the refridgerant. This reduces the COP but keeps them functioning.
ROTMetro 4y ago
Custom ground source heat pump my friend :) side benefit (energy cost) free hot water.
- cmui 4y ago
  Ground source is great! (if you can afford the install).
throitallaway 4y ago
Windchill is irrelevant here, it only indicates what the temperature feels like to warm blooded mammals.
- doctoboggan 4y ago
  windchill as a concept can be applied to all evaporative cooling systems.
  - 16bytes 4y ago
    Heat pumps are not an evaporative system. You can't lower the temperature across a gradient lower than the fluid temperature, no matter how fast that fluid is moving. You can cool things down faster, but you can't go lower. So if it's 10F, a 5F heat pump will work equally well at 0mph wind and 30mph.
    - cmui 4y ago
      You got it. A brief technical aside, heat pump performance is hurt by frosting, which happens at intermediate outdoor temps (~35-50F). Basically the outdoor coil is both below freezing, and below the dewpoint of the air. The frost forms a thermal insulating layer around the coil, and intermittently you have to run a defrost cycle to melt off the ice. This is a small hit to system efficiency.
    - doctoboggan 4y ago
      Yes, I never claimed they were. I was responding to the idea that only warm-blooded mammals have the concept of wind-chill. Any system that takes advantage of evaporative cooling will have the concept of wind chill. A "swamp cooler" is one example.
- nkurz 4y ago
  I was tempted to give a similar answer, but I'm not so sure it's irrelevant. Yes, the windchill won't affect the energy efficiency of the heatpump. But it will affect the rate at which the house loses heat, and thus the BTU's the system needs to provide to maintain a temperature. If the heatpump has been exactly sized to maintain a house temperature of (say) 70F at the expected winter low, adding a strong wind on the exterior of the house seems like it might make for a chilly morning. The effect isn't as strong as it is for bare skin at body temp, and hence the exact numbers will be off, but it's still there, right?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
triceratops 4y ago
Not every product is for everyone.

turtlebits 4y ago

If you want to control air quality, you do this with a separate fresh air intake, not with a ducted furnace. Many older homes have furnaces taking air from sub-optimal spaces such as garages or crawl spaces.

heatpumpfan 4y ago
[dead]
cmui 4y ago
Great point. You don't source from the same spot you source combustion air - you run a separate fresh air intake. This system has HEPA, fresh air intake and humidity control packaged/integrated together well. The fresh air wouldn't come from a garage or crawl space, but from the outdoors via a dedicated (small) duct.

sabareesh 4y ago

Do you have product specification sheet like this https://images.thdstatic.com/catalog/pdfImages/96/96c34548-a354-49c1-8e73-6661e493ada3.pdf https://images.thdstatic.com/catalog/pdfImages/96/96c34548-a... You say 5f but I dont see any reference to that on your site.

sosodev 4y ago

When you say it's rated at 47F do you mean its efficiency is measured at 47F? If so, does that matter much? The unit linked in the post you're replying to states that it can operate as low as -13F.

cmui 4y ago
Talking about capacity for heat pumps is tricky, their available heating power changes continuously as a function of outdoor temperature. The convention is to refer to the available capacity at 47F for 'normal' heat pump and the capacity at 5F for a cold climate heat pump.
- sosodev 4y ago
  Makes sense. How much does their capacity typically change over their operating temperature range?
  - malfist 4y ago
    Heat pumps extract heat, either from the house, or from the outside air. When heating, it pulls it from the outside air. As it gets colder, there is less heat to pull out. Typically heat pumps will still keep pulling heat at >100% efficiency nearly into the negatives, but the amount they're extracting isn't enough to keep up with the heat loss of the house. Heat lost of the house is a factor of insulation, surface area and heat gradient. It's a lot harder to keep a house at 68F when it's 5F outside than it is when it is 50F. So when it's cold out, you need more heat generation, and there's less heat to pull from the air. That's why heat pumps have backup auxiliary heat.

danielmarkbruce 4y ago

First - this thing is awesome so nice going. Second - yes, significantly better communication on the website is going to help. Some economic analysis (the section of savings is ambiguous) with specifics, specifics on how it would look with financing, for different house sizes etc would get a lot of people across the hump. It's quite unclear to me if this thing makes sense financially. Third - nice going, this really is awesome.