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> Presumably the children in question lied about their age when they signed up. That’s not true though. The company knew exactly what they were doing and still

> Presumably the children in question lied about their age when they signed up. That’s not true though. The company knew exactly what they were doing and still they went ahead and doubled down on it. Excerpt from article: “Our investigation found Packers Sanitation Services’ systems flagged some young workers as minors, but the company ignored the flags. When the Wage and Hour Division arrived with warrants, the adults – who had recruited, hired and supervised these children – tried to derail our efforts to investigate their employment practices,” said Wage and Hour Regional Administrator Michael Lazzeri in Chicago.

roenxi 4y ago
Probably. They did just lose a big court case. But if I ask "how old are you?" in an interview and reject anyone who says "17", then all the interviewees are going to say "18". Kids are pretty dumb but they can figure this stuff out. I'd be happy to claim 10 years of Kubernetes experience if I thought it would give me an advantage in the job market, no question. The children in question are already violating local labour laws; claiming to be 18 doesn't really hurt at that point. Although I will note "tried to derail our efforts" is one of those things that could mean anything. People who are innocent might also have tried to derail efforts. Being investigated prompts some funny responses by businessmen.
- throw93 4y ago
  The age of the kids was in their system. So the children did not lie about their age. It’s weird to defend the company that knowingly illegally employs kids in hazardous job and instead doubt the govt agency that brings this problem to light. > The children in question are already violating local labour laws; No they aren’t. Their age was in company’s system and company ignored it. Also they are “children”. You expect a 13 year old on ideal behavior while grown adults at the company were knowingly breaking the law? > I'd be happy to claim 10 years of Kubernetes experience if I thought it would give me an advantage in the job market, no question 1. Software development is not a hazardous job, 2. You’re an adult.
  - roenxi 4y ago
    > The age of the kids was in their system. Oh, I missed that. I thought they meant that the company had ignored the investigators flagging that there were minors employed. Yeah that is pretty bad. Although I maintain there are going to be a lot more than 100 children illegally employed as cleaners in the US. Not everyone is going to be stupid enough to keep good records like that. > Software development is not a hazardous job Adults shouldn't be at risk of being injured on a worksite. The standard is supposed to be no lasting damage regardless of whether children are involved or not. The article mentions 3 injuries, but frankly I don't care if they are injuring 18 year olds or 13 year olds; the problem is the injury not which end of teenager-hood a person falls. That is an issue, but it is an issue that is unrelated to employing underage workers.
    - throw93 4y ago
      > Although I maintain there are going to be a lot more than 100 children illegally employed as cleaners in the US The point is the minors working at a meat packing company are victims, it’s ridiculous to blame them regardless of whether they lied or not and in this case they didn’t. The real entity to blame is the company which allowed this to happen and got away with meager $1.5 million fine. > I don't care if they are injuring 18 year olds or 13 year olds..That is an issue, but it is an issue that is unrelated to employing underage workers. It is related because meat packing is a hazardous job and there are more chances of injury for a minor than an adult, regardless of the training. That’s the whole reason the law specifically has an age limit for this type of jobs.
      - roenxi 4y ago
        > The point is the minors working at a meat packing company are victims Victims of what, a sudden rush of employment? Child labour laws are, at best, a statistical observation that the majority of children are better off being at school than going to work and it is safer just to insist than try and work out the edge cases. It is appropriate that the company was fined in accordance with the law, they shouldn't have done this. But fact is that there are some kids where working at 13 will just lead to them having better outcomes than anything else. There are 3 victims here who were injured, beyond that there needs to be actual evidence before we start calling them victims. It isn't like at 17 they're victimised and then at 18 the scales fall from their eyes and everything is roses and sunshine. The line is a reasonable judgement call based on averages and estimated opportunity cost. > It is related because meat packing is a hazardous job and there are more chances of injury for a minor than an adult, regardless of the training. Depends on the injury I suppose, but my guess is that if they're stupid enough to have underage employees on payroll this company was probably not providing a safe workplace. I assume injuries are high across the board. A kid probably is more likely to get injured in the workplace just by virtue of being pretty clueless and a lot more lightweight, I grant you that. But it is quite possible that these injuries say more about the workplace than the age of the injured.
- JeremyBanks 4y ago
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- rexpop 4y ago
  > Kids are pretty dumb but they can figure this stuff out. Children did not, under their own agency, seek out exploitative employment. We recognize that, as minors, their nominal consent is immaterial in the face of the overwhelming comparative sophistication of adults and adult institutions. The kids did not figure this stuff out; the adults in the room did.
nostromo 4y ago
> That’s not true though. There's not enough information here to know either way. What system flagged them, when, and based off of what information?
- throw93 4y ago
  The agency had enough information to prosecute and fine the company. I would rather trust a govt agency than a for profit company whose only motivation is earn profit by any means necessary.

roenxi 4y ago

Probably. They did just lose a big court case. But if I ask "how old are you?" in an interview and reject anyone who says "17", then all the interviewees are going to say "18". Kids are pretty dumb but they can figure this stuff out. I'd be happy to claim 10 years of Kubernetes experience if I thought it would give me an advantage in the job market, no question. The children in question are already violating local labour laws; claiming to be 18 doesn't really hurt at that point. Although I will note "tried to derail our efforts" is one of those things that could mean anything. People who are innocent might also have tried to derail efforts. Being investigated prompts some funny responses by businessmen.

throw93 4y ago
The age of the kids was in their system. So the children did not lie about their age. It’s weird to defend the company that knowingly illegally employs kids in hazardous job and instead doubt the govt agency that brings this problem to light. > The children in question are already violating local labour laws; No they aren’t. Their age was in company’s system and company ignored it. Also they are “children”. You expect a 13 year old on ideal behavior while grown adults at the company were knowingly breaking the law? > I'd be happy to claim 10 years of Kubernetes experience if I thought it would give me an advantage in the job market, no question 1. Software development is not a hazardous job, 2. You’re an adult.
- roenxi 4y ago
  > The age of the kids was in their system. Oh, I missed that. I thought they meant that the company had ignored the investigators flagging that there were minors employed. Yeah that is pretty bad. Although I maintain there are going to be a lot more than 100 children illegally employed as cleaners in the US. Not everyone is going to be stupid enough to keep good records like that. > Software development is not a hazardous job Adults shouldn't be at risk of being injured on a worksite. The standard is supposed to be no lasting damage regardless of whether children are involved or not. The article mentions 3 injuries, but frankly I don't care if they are injuring 18 year olds or 13 year olds; the problem is the injury not which end of teenager-hood a person falls. That is an issue, but it is an issue that is unrelated to employing underage workers.
  - throw93 4y ago
    > Although I maintain there are going to be a lot more than 100 children illegally employed as cleaners in the US The point is the minors working at a meat packing company are victims, it’s ridiculous to blame them regardless of whether they lied or not and in this case they didn’t. The real entity to blame is the company which allowed this to happen and got away with meager $1.5 million fine. > I don't care if they are injuring 18 year olds or 13 year olds..That is an issue, but it is an issue that is unrelated to employing underage workers. It is related because meat packing is a hazardous job and there are more chances of injury for a minor than an adult, regardless of the training. That’s the whole reason the law specifically has an age limit for this type of jobs.
    - roenxi 4y ago
      > The point is the minors working at a meat packing company are victims Victims of what, a sudden rush of employment? Child labour laws are, at best, a statistical observation that the majority of children are better off being at school than going to work and it is safer just to insist than try and work out the edge cases. It is appropriate that the company was fined in accordance with the law, they shouldn't have done this. But fact is that there are some kids where working at 13 will just lead to them having better outcomes than anything else. There are 3 victims here who were injured, beyond that there needs to be actual evidence before we start calling them victims. It isn't like at 17 they're victimised and then at 18 the scales fall from their eyes and everything is roses and sunshine. The line is a reasonable judgement call based on averages and estimated opportunity cost. > It is related because meat packing is a hazardous job and there are more chances of injury for a minor than an adult, regardless of the training. Depends on the injury I suppose, but my guess is that if they're stupid enough to have underage employees on payroll this company was probably not providing a safe workplace. I assume injuries are high across the board. A kid probably is more likely to get injured in the workplace just by virtue of being pretty clueless and a lot more lightweight, I grant you that. But it is quite possible that these injuries say more about the workplace than the age of the injured.
JeremyBanks 4y ago
[dead]
rexpop 4y ago
> Kids are pretty dumb but they can figure this stuff out. Children did not, under their own agency, seek out exploitative employment. We recognize that, as minors, their nominal consent is immaterial in the face of the overwhelming comparative sophistication of adults and adult institutions. The kids did not figure this stuff out; the adults in the room did.

nostromo 4y ago

> That’s not true though. There's not enough information here to know either way. What system flagged them, when, and based off of what information?

throw93 4y ago
The agency had enough information to prosecute and fine the company. I would rather trust a govt agency than a for profit company whose only motivation is earn profit by any means necessary.