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Maybe I'm a callous bastard, but I genuinely don't get how he feels personally responsible here. It's a YouTube problem, not a M:tG problem or a him problem.

by Zetice 4y ago

Maybe I'm a callous bastard, but I genuinely don't get how he feels personally responsible here. It's a YouTube problem, not a M:tG problem or a him problem. He sounds genuinely distressed, and I feel for him, but I don't get why it causes him pain in this specific way. It's not your fault! And for what it's worth, it's not really YouTube's "fault" either. Remember, they're victims here too. They didn't invite this, they didn't ask for this, and they're asking for ideas because they don't know themselves what to do. Computers are sometimes likened to "magic" where we just cast a spell by writing code, and something technically beautiful happens, but where magic can interpret intent and act according to the caster's desire, computers can't, and there's no way to "Wrath of God" the spammers. I hope this guy can find a way to live with this kind of thing, as I really don't see scammers getting wiped out in any conclusive sense, on YouTube or any platform. It sucks, it's unfair, but it's not realistically possible to deal with conclusively.

platz 4y ago
Maybe you are—people are taking advantage of his reputation and brand and harming his viewers. If you insist on seeing it through a lens of self-interested sociopathy, he could loose his most ardent fans & contributors and suffer damage to his brand and/or reputation, via bad interactions with those scammers.
debacle 4y ago
His brand is being damaged by this. For anyone who has never had a brand with value, I could see why that seems dumb, but for some people brand becomes everything.
s1artibartfast 4y ago
He isn't the one causing the harm, but people are being harmed that would not if his business did not exist- it seems like this weighs on him. If every time you had a party, one of your guests would be hit by lightning and die, you might feel guilty about hosting parties. Would you feel comfortable inviting your friends and family over?
JeremyBanks 4y ago
[dead]
prepend 4y ago
> He sounds genuinely distressed, and I feel for him, but I don't get why it causes him pain in this specific way. It's not your fault! I’m familiar with this personality and his brand is being distressed about many other things. I think he’s just expressing feelings for his audience or something. He’s also apologized for lots of other things that aren’t his fault- rude magic fans, sexists, racists, people who spend too much money, people who don’t spend enough, etc. He tends to spend a lot of time apologizing for things that aren’t his fault or that he has no control over. It’s not unique to him, and seems kind of common. I’m not sure what to call these over-empathizers.
ncallaway 4y ago
> Computers are sometimes likened to "magic" where we just cast a spell by writing code, and something technically beautiful happens, but where magic can interpret intent and act according to the caster's desire, computers can't, and there's no way to "Wrath of God" the spammers. I somewhat agree with this, but I feel like there's some very low-hanging fruit that should be available. When posting in comments on a video there should be: - An avatar similarity check. If you have an avatar that is too similar to the channel of the video you're commenting on, your post automatically goes into a moderation queue (or just remove avatars from comments, except from the channel). - A name similarity check. If you have a name that is too similar to the channel name, your post automatically goes into a moderation queue. - A huge indication that a comment comes from the channel author. They have some indications of this now, but it should be very prominent, so it's *obvious* when comments don't come from the channel author. None of these things are going to be trivial to implement for a company like YouTube, but this has been a problem for years at this point. These things could have been done by now.
- jvanderbot 4y ago
  Formatting author comments to have red background and white text is, like, an intern project.
- ThunderSizzle 4y ago
  I agree with you. However, I'd point out a usability issue: > A huge indication that a comment comes from the channel author. This pattern requires that users have done something to have seen this before. While many users will see it, the users that are probably falling for this problem probably will not have seen this "huge indication" before, so wouldn't know it exists. e.g. a user who never checks comments really, but then checks comments one day and sees the scammer might not realize there would be an indicator if it was the video's author.
  - ncallaway 4y ago
    I agree, which is why I would prioritize the other fixes as well. Still, these kinds of things (once broadly learned by the community) can have a significant impact. Yes, it won't be 100%, but it would reduce the conversion rate of the scammers. That's ultimately the solution. No single measure will ever fix this, and if you wait to implement something until you will solve the entire problem space you'll never get started. The solution is a hundred different changes that each reduce the scammers' conversion rate by 1-2%.
etchalon 4y ago
Empathy and concern for people isn't a novel concept.
swatcoder 4y ago
> And for what it's worth, it's not really YouTube's "fault" either. Remember, they're victims here too. They didn't invite this, they didn't ask for this “Let’s see if we can host all the world’s video content and all its commentary only using automated tools!” That was the idea behind the social media boom and it was a foolhardy one. The moderation problems that social media platforms are having now are 100% of their own invitation. They just managed to hold them off for a while.
dbg31415 4y ago
> Maybe I'm a callous bastard... He is upset that his posts are acting like bait, that his likeness is getting used to scam people who wanted nothing more than to connect with someone they admire. For a lot of people, it would be impossible not to take this personally.
ALittleLight 4y ago
Imagine talking with multiple people who think you scammed them. Someone with your name (almost) and avatar picture convinced them to send a hundred dollars for a PlayStation, and they only did so because they believed it was you. A month goes by and the PlayStation didn't show up - now they're trying to contact you to figure out what happened. I think the creator has clearly spent a lot of time and effort building his community, and he is witnessing members of that community being hurt, but also his reputation is being directly attacked by the scammers to hurt his image with the very people of his community.
_ph_ 4y ago
If you have any kind of venue, lets say a restaurant or a shop, you don't want your customers be targetted by any kind of illicit activity even if it is not on your grounds, e.g. in front of your store. Even less you want anyone use your identity in committing fraud. It would't matter if you are not in any direct reponsibility for that. So I can very much understand his concerns.
YeGoblynQueenne 4y ago
>> Maybe I'm a callous bastard, but I genuinely don't get how he feels personally responsible here. Probably because he's not a callous bastard. Don't worry, I'm not saying you're one, either. I suspect you just don't have his responsibilities. Like, hundreds of people who somehow hold you up in great esteem because of the stuff you create. That's a heavy burden and most people who aren't assholes will take it seriously. Guy just shot up in my esteem five hundred levels. (yeah yeah, I know M:tG doesn't have levels... :P)
xracy 4y ago
He doesn't feel personally "responsible". He is emotionally invested in his followers well-being. Which is something that comes through in a lot of his videos. He wants the best for the people that follow him, and so he feels like he's failing in his inability to help them on this. Which is why he's also pleading Youtube (that should absolutely be staying abridged of this race).
krisoft 4y ago
> Maybe I'm a callous bastard, but I genuinely don't get how he feels personally responsible here. The bit where it gets complicated is that the scammers are using his name and likeness. The way these scams work is by convincing people that the youtuber in question wants to connect with them and then they steal money from them. How would you feel if I would go around on HN tell people that I'm Zetice and steal money from them? How would you feel if the way you would hear about this is by confused people messaging you and demanding very angrily that you pay them back? You Zetice worked hard to be a person with integrity, and someone is squandering away your accumulated goodwill, hurting the very people who look up to you and you can't do anything about that. I think I would feel terrible, and I would try to use my platform to shine a light to this problem. Worst case a few of my followers would wisen up and develop resistance to this kind of scam. Best case some manager at youtube shovels more money into solving the problem.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

by Zetice 4y ago

platz 4y ago

Maybe you are—people are taking advantage of his reputation and brand and harming his viewers. If you insist on seeing it through a lens of self-interested sociopathy, he could loose his most ardent fans & contributors and suffer damage to his brand and/or reputation, via bad interactions with those scammers.

debacle 4y ago

His brand is being damaged by this. For anyone who has never had a brand with value, I could see why that seems dumb, but for some people brand becomes everything.

s1artibartfast 4y ago

He isn't the one causing the harm, but people are being harmed that would not if his business did not exist- it seems like this weighs on him. If every time you had a party, one of your guests would be hit by lightning and die, you might feel guilty about hosting parties. Would you feel comfortable inviting your friends and family over?

JeremyBanks 4y ago

[dead]

prepend 4y ago

> He sounds genuinely distressed, and I feel for him, but I don't get why it causes him pain in this specific way. It's not your fault! I’m familiar with this personality and his brand is being distressed about many other things. I think he’s just expressing feelings for his audience or something. He’s also apologized for lots of other things that aren’t his fault- rude magic fans, sexists, racists, people who spend too much money, people who don’t spend enough, etc. He tends to spend a lot of time apologizing for things that aren’t his fault or that he has no control over. It’s not unique to him, and seems kind of common. I’m not sure what to call these over-empathizers.

ncallaway 4y ago

> Computers are sometimes likened to "magic" where we just cast a spell by writing code, and something technically beautiful happens, but where magic can interpret intent and act according to the caster's desire, computers can't, and there's no way to "Wrath of God" the spammers. I somewhat agree with this, but I feel like there's some very low-hanging fruit that should be available. When posting in comments on a video there should be: - An avatar similarity check. If you have an avatar that is too similar to the channel of the video you're commenting on, your post automatically goes into a moderation queue (or just remove avatars from comments, except from the channel). - A name similarity check. If you have a name that is too similar to the channel name, your post automatically goes into a moderation queue. - A huge indication that a comment comes from the channel author. They have some indications of this now, but it should be very prominent, so it's *obvious* when comments don't come from the channel author. None of these things are going to be trivial to implement for a company like YouTube, but this has been a problem for years at this point. These things could have been done by now.

jvanderbot 4y ago
Formatting author comments to have red background and white text is, like, an intern project.
ThunderSizzle 4y ago
I agree with you. However, I'd point out a usability issue: > A huge indication that a comment comes from the channel author. This pattern requires that users have done something to have seen this before. While many users will see it, the users that are probably falling for this problem probably will not have seen this "huge indication" before, so wouldn't know it exists. e.g. a user who never checks comments really, but then checks comments one day and sees the scammer might not realize there would be an indicator if it was the video's author.
- ncallaway 4y ago
  I agree, which is why I would prioritize the other fixes as well. Still, these kinds of things (once broadly learned by the community) can have a significant impact. Yes, it won't be 100%, but it would reduce the conversion rate of the scammers. That's ultimately the solution. No single measure will ever fix this, and if you wait to implement something until you will solve the entire problem space you'll never get started. The solution is a hundred different changes that each reduce the scammers' conversion rate by 1-2%.

etchalon 4y ago

Empathy and concern for people isn't a novel concept.

swatcoder 4y ago

> And for what it's worth, it's not really YouTube's "fault" either. Remember, they're victims here too. They didn't invite this, they didn't ask for this “Let’s see if we can host all the world’s video content and all its commentary only using automated tools!” That was the idea behind the social media boom and it was a foolhardy one. The moderation problems that social media platforms are having now are 100% of their own invitation. They just managed to hold them off for a while.

dbg31415 4y ago

> Maybe I'm a callous bastard... He is upset that his posts are acting like bait, that his likeness is getting used to scam people who wanted nothing more than to connect with someone they admire. For a lot of people, it would be impossible not to take this personally.

ALittleLight 4y ago

Imagine talking with multiple people who think you scammed them. Someone with your name (almost) and avatar picture convinced them to send a hundred dollars for a PlayStation, and they only did so because they believed it was you. A month goes by and the PlayStation didn't show up - now they're trying to contact you to figure out what happened. I think the creator has clearly spent a lot of time and effort building his community, and he is witnessing members of that community being hurt, but also his reputation is being directly attacked by the scammers to hurt his image with the very people of his community.

_ph_ 4y ago

If you have any kind of venue, lets say a restaurant or a shop, you don't want your customers be targetted by any kind of illicit activity even if it is not on your grounds, e.g. in front of your store. Even less you want anyone use your identity in committing fraud. It would't matter if you are not in any direct reponsibility for that. So I can very much understand his concerns.

YeGoblynQueenne 4y ago

>> Maybe I'm a callous bastard, but I genuinely don't get how he feels personally responsible here. Probably because he's not a callous bastard. Don't worry, I'm not saying you're one, either. I suspect you just don't have his responsibilities. Like, hundreds of people who somehow hold you up in great esteem because of the stuff you create. That's a heavy burden and most people who aren't assholes will take it seriously. Guy just shot up in my esteem five hundred levels. (yeah yeah, I know M:tG doesn't have levels... :P)

xracy 4y ago

He doesn't feel personally "responsible". He is emotionally invested in his followers well-being. Which is something that comes through in a lot of his videos. He wants the best for the people that follow him, and so he feels like he's failing in his inability to help them on this. Which is why he's also pleading Youtube (that should absolutely be staying abridged of this race).

krisoft 4y ago

> Maybe I'm a callous bastard, but I genuinely don't get how he feels personally responsible here. The bit where it gets complicated is that the scammers are using his name and likeness. The way these scams work is by convincing people that the youtuber in question wants to connect with them and then they steal money from them. How would you feel if I would go around on HN tell people that I'm Zetice and steal money from them? How would you feel if the way you would hear about this is by confused people messaging you and demanding very angrily that you pay them back? You Zetice worked hard to be a person with integrity, and someone is squandering away your accumulated goodwill, hurting the very people who look up to you and you can't do anything about that. I think I would feel terrible, and I would try to use my platform to shine a light to this problem. Worst case a few of my followers would wisen up and develop resistance to this kind of scam. Best case some manager at youtube shovels more money into solving the problem.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]