8 ms·

I totally get the upgrade angle for non-technical people...but you need to convince them that they want it...and that it is worth Framework's frankly large prem

I totally get the upgrade angle for non-technical people...but you need to convince them that they want it...and that it is worth Framework's frankly large premium. Then you get to the fact that this machine is incredibly poorly sold if that is your market. The pre-configured options are almost insane. $1050 for a machine with 8GB ram..or $400 more to get 16GB because they paired it with CPU and Storage upgrades? Of course you can go DIY but keep in mind this is for lightly-technical users. Then a user needs to pick their port loadout. It is overload and a lot of money for anyone who isn't technical...but if you ARE technical...this thing is basically a bad ultrabook in use. You can get a like-spec (1240p, 8gb, 256) Asus Zenbook 14 OLED...for $500 dollars less! That's my gripe. I love the repair angle. The expansion cards are downright silly for most users. The money is basically nuts for prebuilt. And, ultimately they made a non-touch Surface Book 3..rather than a Macbook Pro. > Isn't that how you piss away your niche market? Well yeah. It's also how you continue to exist outside a niche. Some companies manage to do both. I would argue that the current top-end Macbook Pro is a downright niche product compared to the rest of their lineup. See also: The Mazda Miata. Niche, well loved, technical, co-existing.

okasaki 4y ago
> It is overload and a lot of money for anyone who isn't technical...but if you ARE technical...this thing is basically a bad ultrabook in use. You can get a like-spec (1240p, 8gb, 256) Asus Zenbook 14 OLED...for $500 dollars less! And 8gb is all you will ever have on the Asus, since it's soldered to the board. So the comparison between the two is completely dishonest because the Framework is an upgradable computer that can be used for decades, and the Asus is a toy which will be rusting in some 3rd world landfill in two years.
- agloe_dreams 4y ago
  The 8GB is fair...but the Framework being upgradable for decades is...uh...pretty absurd. You don't even know if the company will exist next week. The only actually standardized upgradable part is the Storage and Memory. The Zenbook also has upgradable storage. The CPU is soldered to the proprietary board with their own battery design and own display. The battery is roughly as upgradable as on the framework if not less convenient. Personally, the idea is all pretty oversold. If the motherboard was standardized and had a swappable CPU..maybe..but this is just a laptop with marketing. The Dell XPS 15 has the exact same upgrade path as the Framework..but also a 15 inch display and dedicated graphics. Any number of MSI laptops support upgrading ram. The idea is nobel...but not novel.
  - okasaki 4y ago
    Ultimately, RAM capacity is what makes old computers usable for light use, or junk. There are still people using the thinkpad x61 (2007) today. It came with 512MB-2GB ram, but you can put up to 8GB in it. 8GB and a SSD is enough to comfortably run the latest Linux and Chrome and is pretty decent on such a little computer. If it had a soldered 1GB it would be junk. 8GB soldered ram will make your Asus junk in 2039 (2023 + 16 years), but 64GB in the Framework has a much better chance of being usable. Laptop manufacturers (and clueless crony reviewers) say that the ram is soldered to make the laptop smaller, but units like the Framework clearly show this is bullshit. They're just doing it to stop you from extending the life is old hardware.
    - endemic 4y ago
      I agree with this. My personal laptop is a 2010 MacBook Pro, which is way past its expiration date, but was kept usable because I maxed the RAM (8GB) and installed a hybrid SSD. I was/am annoyed that Apple laptops no longer have user-serviceable parts, but I'm coming to terms with investing up front for that same longevity.
    - csdvrx 4y ago
      > Laptop manufacturers (and clueless crony reviewers) say that the ram is soldered to make the laptop smaller, but units like the Framework clearly show this is bullshit. They're just doing it to stop you from extending the life is old hardware. Totally! Also for on die/soldering being allegedly the only way around hardware issues "requiring" the RAM to be physically as close to the CPU as possible, Dell CAMM standard shows that there are other way!
  - Rebelgecko 4y ago
    > The only actually standardized upgradable part is the Storage and Memory. The Zenbook also has upgradable storage. The CPU is soldered to the proprietary board with their own battery design and own display. The battery is roughly as upgradable as FWIW these are the things that I need to upgrade the most frequently with computers I've owned in the past. My desktop has gone through 5 storage drives (500GB spinning disk, 2TB spinning disk, small crappy 2.5 inch SSD, bigger slightly faster 2.5 inch SSD, and finally an M.2 drive) and 3 RAM iterations (2 sticks DDR3, 4 sticks DD3, 2 sticks DDR5). I only recently got to the point where I needed to upgrade the CPU for the first time.

okasaki 4y ago

> It is overload and a lot of money for anyone who isn't technical...but if you ARE technical...this thing is basically a bad ultrabook in use. You can get a like-spec (1240p, 8gb, 256) Asus Zenbook 14 OLED...for $500 dollars less! And 8gb is all you will ever have on the Asus, since it's soldered to the board. So the comparison between the two is completely dishonest because the Framework is an upgradable computer that can be used for decades, and the Asus is a toy which will be rusting in some 3rd world landfill in two years.

agloe_dreams 4y ago
The 8GB is fair...but the Framework being upgradable for decades is...uh...pretty absurd. You don't even know if the company will exist next week. The only actually standardized upgradable part is the Storage and Memory. The Zenbook also has upgradable storage. The CPU is soldered to the proprietary board with their own battery design and own display. The battery is roughly as upgradable as on the framework if not less convenient. Personally, the idea is all pretty oversold. If the motherboard was standardized and had a swappable CPU..maybe..but this is just a laptop with marketing. The Dell XPS 15 has the exact same upgrade path as the Framework..but also a 15 inch display and dedicated graphics. Any number of MSI laptops support upgrading ram. The idea is nobel...but not novel.
- okasaki 4y ago
  Ultimately, RAM capacity is what makes old computers usable for light use, or junk. There are still people using the thinkpad x61 (2007) today. It came with 512MB-2GB ram, but you can put up to 8GB in it. 8GB and a SSD is enough to comfortably run the latest Linux and Chrome and is pretty decent on such a little computer. If it had a soldered 1GB it would be junk. 8GB soldered ram will make your Asus junk in 2039 (2023 + 16 years), but 64GB in the Framework has a much better chance of being usable. Laptop manufacturers (and clueless crony reviewers) say that the ram is soldered to make the laptop smaller, but units like the Framework clearly show this is bullshit. They're just doing it to stop you from extending the life is old hardware.
  - endemic 4y ago
    I agree with this. My personal laptop is a 2010 MacBook Pro, which is way past its expiration date, but was kept usable because I maxed the RAM (8GB) and installed a hybrid SSD. I was/am annoyed that Apple laptops no longer have user-serviceable parts, but I'm coming to terms with investing up front for that same longevity.
  - csdvrx 4y ago
    > Laptop manufacturers (and clueless crony reviewers) say that the ram is soldered to make the laptop smaller, but units like the Framework clearly show this is bullshit. They're just doing it to stop you from extending the life is old hardware. Totally! Also for on die/soldering being allegedly the only way around hardware issues "requiring" the RAM to be physically as close to the CPU as possible, Dell CAMM standard shows that there are other way!
- Rebelgecko 4y ago
  > The only actually standardized upgradable part is the Storage and Memory. The Zenbook also has upgradable storage. The CPU is soldered to the proprietary board with their own battery design and own display. The battery is roughly as upgradable as FWIW these are the things that I need to upgrade the most frequently with computers I've owned in the past. My desktop has gone through 5 storage drives (500GB spinning disk, 2TB spinning disk, small crappy 2.5 inch SSD, bigger slightly faster 2.5 inch SSD, and finally an M.2 drive) and 3 RAM iterations (2 sticks DDR3, 4 sticks DD3, 2 sticks DDR5). I only recently got to the point where I needed to upgrade the CPU for the first time.