4 ms·

> I mean... people pay for reading the stars, tarot cards I used to consider these to be pretty worthless things too. After a while I started to realise that a

> I mean... people pay for reading the stars, tarot cards I used to consider these to be pretty worthless things too. After a while I started to realise that a lot of these things provide a lot of the same random platitudes that therapists typically provide too. Given that therapists are a bit of a dice roll as far as the quality of advice you get, why not just instead make the advice given itself a dice roll. At that point, there’s a non negligible probability that the advice given by a half decent palm / star / tarot reader might actually be relevant. Sure, it’s all just chance and luck, but when the advice ends up being relevant (or becomes self fulfilling in its relevance) and actually helps the receiver, why not? (These learnings are brought to you by my ex who very patiently explained to me one of the ways I was an asshole when we were together. I’m now a bit more open minded and keep my eye rolls to myself behind my sunglasses)

TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
You must have had some pretty bad therapists to compare all of them to tarot cards.
benj111 4y ago
But if I buy a lottery ticket, there's theoretically a chance of winning, even though I never actually will. It would still be fraud if someone sold lottery tickets for a lottery that never was. Tarot readers are selling a fake good. You can't really escape the ethical implications of that.
- dwringer 4y ago
  As long as the fortune is vague enough to apply to more than 40-50 people, then the chance of a fabricated fortune-telling for you coming true simply by pure random coincidence seems to be greater than the chance of winning the lottery.
  - FartyMcFarter 4y ago
    I see your point, but that's not how fortune telling is sold.
stametseater 4y ago
> At that point, there’s a non negligible probability that the advice given by a half decent palm / star / tarot reader might actually be relevant. In most cases, the advice those people give probably isn't random at all. It's likely tailored to the client, based on "cold reading" techniques, the practitioners general experience with life and people, maybe the practitioner secretly scouring social media for information about the client, etc.
- naniwaduni 4y ago
  At that point, you're just getting the unregulated, uninsured version of therapy, aren't you?
  - stametseater 4y ago
    Exactly. Well.. mostly. I would say you're getting advice, not "therapy" per se, and that most people that others might seek advice from are not licensed therapists. Parents, mentors, priests, elders, etc.. all people that somebody might seek advice from who aren't licensed therapists, and generally nobody makes a big deal about it. If you're going to the fortune teller or priest for advice, that's what you're getting and the quality of the product might even be good in some cases. If you're going to the fortune teller or priest to receive magical services, then obviously you're getting scammed.
mschuster91 4y ago
> Sure, it’s all just chance and luck, but when the advice ends up being relevant (or becomes self fulfilling in its relevance) and actually helps the receiver, why not? It's like homeopathy: still a mixture between fraud, pseudoscience and sometimes outright dangerous advice, the ratio depending on the provider. And people can and do lose entire life savings to that shit. Just because someone's cold "went away" after downing a ton of sugar pills, it doesn't mean the homeopathy caused that - it was the person's own body all along. The worst thing about all pseudoscience stuff is that accepting it as a society means that non-scientific opinions are accepted as an equal in democratic discourse - and that is the foundation on which quackery, vaccine denialism, MMS and a whole lot of conspiracy myths grow. Besides: there's a reason why therapists (at least in Europe) generally have to be licensed similar to doctors... bad advice can literally kill people. We, as a society, should push for equitable and accessible actual mental health care for everyone, provided by trained and continuously educated professionals - not for quackery.
- AlecSchueler 4y ago
  The use of tarot cards as therapeutic projectives is actually backed by science though, [1] and more and more practitioners are making use of them in clinical settings [2]. You're jumping to call it quackery without having an open mind. That's not science, that's prejudice. 1: https://www.academia.edu/442955/Tarot_As_a_Projective_Technique https://www.academia.edu/442955/Tarot_As_a_Projective_Techni... 2: https://psychcentral.com/pro/using-tarot-in-psychotherapy https://psychcentral.com/pro/using-tarot-in-psychotherapy
  - benj111 4y ago
    Is it ok for doctors to give sugar pills for ailments too? They're shown to be effective for a variety of ailments. Tarot reading goes hand in hand with reading people's fortune. I don't see how you can separate the 2 and therefore have an ethically acceptable treatment, and that's assuming the placebo isn't entirely based on the fortune reading expectation.
    - AlecSchueler 4y ago

TedDoesntTalk 4y ago

You must have had some pretty bad therapists to compare all of them to tarot cards.

benj111 4y ago

But if I buy a lottery ticket, there's theoretically a chance of winning, even though I never actually will. It would still be fraud if someone sold lottery tickets for a lottery that never was. Tarot readers are selling a fake good. You can't really escape the ethical implications of that.

dwringer 4y ago
As long as the fortune is vague enough to apply to more than 40-50 people, then the chance of a fabricated fortune-telling for you coming true simply by pure random coincidence seems to be greater than the chance of winning the lottery.
- FartyMcFarter 4y ago
  I see your point, but that's not how fortune telling is sold.

stametseater 4y ago

> At that point, there’s a non negligible probability that the advice given by a half decent palm / star / tarot reader might actually be relevant. In most cases, the advice those people give probably isn't random at all. It's likely tailored to the client, based on "cold reading" techniques, the practitioners general experience with life and people, maybe the practitioner secretly scouring social media for information about the client, etc.

naniwaduni 4y ago
At that point, you're just getting the unregulated, uninsured version of therapy, aren't you?
- stametseater 4y ago
  Exactly. Well.. mostly. I would say you're getting advice, not "therapy" per se, and that most people that others might seek advice from are not licensed therapists. Parents, mentors, priests, elders, etc.. all people that somebody might seek advice from who aren't licensed therapists, and generally nobody makes a big deal about it. If you're going to the fortune teller or priest for advice, that's what you're getting and the quality of the product might even be good in some cases. If you're going to the fortune teller or priest to receive magical services, then obviously you're getting scammed.

mschuster91 4y ago

> Sure, it’s all just chance and luck, but when the advice ends up being relevant (or becomes self fulfilling in its relevance) and actually helps the receiver, why not? It's like homeopathy: still a mixture between fraud, pseudoscience and sometimes outright dangerous advice, the ratio depending on the provider. And people can and do lose entire life savings to that shit. Just because someone's cold "went away" after downing a ton of sugar pills, it doesn't mean the homeopathy caused that - it was the person's own body all along. The worst thing about all pseudoscience stuff is that accepting it as a society means that non-scientific opinions are accepted as an equal in democratic discourse - and that is the foundation on which quackery, vaccine denialism, MMS and a whole lot of conspiracy myths grow. Besides: there's a reason why therapists (at least in Europe) generally have to be licensed similar to doctors... bad advice can literally kill people. We, as a society, should push for equitable and accessible actual mental health care for everyone, provided by trained and continuously educated professionals - not for quackery.

AlecSchueler 4y ago
The use of tarot cards as therapeutic projectives is actually backed by science though, [1] and more and more practitioners are making use of them in clinical settings [2]. You're jumping to call it quackery without having an open mind. That's not science, that's prejudice. 1: https://www.academia.edu/442955/Tarot_As_a_Projective_Technique https://www.academia.edu/442955/Tarot_As_a_Projective_Techni... 2: https://psychcentral.com/pro/using-tarot-in-psychotherapy https://psychcentral.com/pro/using-tarot-in-psychotherapy
- benj111 4y ago
  Is it ok for doctors to give sugar pills for ailments too? They're shown to be effective for a variety of ailments. Tarot reading goes hand in hand with reading people's fortune. I don't see how you can separate the 2 and therefore have an ethically acceptable treatment, and that's assuming the placebo isn't entirely based on the fortune reading expectation.
  - AlecSchueler 4y ago