4 ms·

10-15k (mostly in speakers) is around when you start experiencing strongly diminishing returns. Some really nice floorstanding speakers though offer a jaw drop

10-15k (mostly in speakers) is around when you start experiencing strongly diminishing returns. Some really nice floorstanding speakers though offer a jaw dropping improvement that’s measurable.

nvarsj 4y ago
Lower that by an order of magnitude. Genelecs are some of the most common studio monitors and they are way less than that. A pair of JBL 308ps for $700 is the point of diminishing returns for accurate reproduction. Only reason to spend more is aesthetics, features, and SPL (fair enough). Most of the budget in high end production facilities goes into room design and acoustics.
- alfalfasprout 4y ago
  So, two things: 1. Studio monitors are chosen for their flat response curve over a given range not because they: a) accurately cover a large frequency range including bass, b) have exceptional clarity and ultra low distortion. 2. Bookshelf speakers can get really good but they ultimately require subwoofers to cover lower frequencies and that requires not only a good subwoofer with excellent clarity. 3. The vast, vast majority of studios master audio to sound good on a wide range of devices ranging from smartphone speakers to earbuds to $50 soundbars. And ultimately with the "loudness wars" still in full swing, dynamic range compression is widely used. I don't disagree with you that room treatment is of paramount importance. But there is a very, very noticeable difference hearing a good recording over a pair of floorstanding full range speakers with excellent tweeters+woofers and a decent amp. My point a good setup including subwoofer+crossovers+bookshelf speakers that hits the point of diminishing returns tends to approach the $10-15k mark including amp. Some things are a total waste of money. Fancy power cables, super-expensive amps with zero measurements to justify the cost. Snake oil stuff like special ethernet cables, etc. But speakers, as the highest distortion element of the audio chain, absolutely improve noticeably even up to $10-15k or so. I purchased some GoldenEar Triton One.R speakers a few years ago and they still blow people's minds when they listen to them. Everything from the bass to the treble are crystal clear yet not fatiguing.
  - nvarsj 4y ago
    > absolutely improve noticeably even up to $10-15k Except, they don't. The only reason to buy a 15k speaker is to gain a higher SPL before distortion kicks in, or you want some cool feature or aesthetics. For a home user just seeking good (accurate) music reproduction, there is not much point to spending more than a couple grand on a 2.1 system. Beyond that, you are best to spend money on EQ, then room treatments and extra subs to try and sort out the low end (the most challenging aspect of music reproduction).
    - alfalfasprout 4y ago
      > there is not much point to spending more than a couple grand on a 2.1 system. Well, that's a personal choice right? Improvements are noticeable up to the point I mentioned. But is it worth it? Nobody can possibly answer that for you.
      - aforwardslash 4y ago
        There are actually some streaming services offering atmos and high-res audio, so the market is actually quite interesting right now if you have the budget for the equipment. A top of the line experience will cost you a bit north of $1000 per channel assuming you dont get too picky with the speakers, do would be 7+2 -> 9K for a full blown domestic system. The audiophile crowd is buying 2 channel dac systems at a third of that value, just because.
  - jimnotgym 4y ago
    > . 3. The vast, vast majority of studios master audio to sound good on a wide range of devices ranging from smartphone speakers to earbuds to $50 soundbars. Great. So I really don't need the expensive stuff then. It will actually be a distortion of what the engineer intended
    - tt65456 4y ago
      You don't need the super-expensive stuff anyways. But you're obviously not going to get full frequency range (especially bass) on smartphone speakers. Additionally, a few genres (notably some jazz and Western classical) as well as select recordings here and there actually do not have "loudness war" issues and might actually have good dynamics. For these, it's nice to have a system that can handle, say, the full blown volume swings of a Romantic-era symphony. You can probably fulfill these requirements with a system far under $15K. :) I actually was under the impression that the audiophile market (at least the stereotypical) was fairly "dead"; it was more of a thing in, say, the 1970s-1980s phenomenon (with a follow-up in the late 1990s with the home theater boom) when the gap between consumer electronics and hi-end electronics was a lot bigger, and there was a lot less technical information out there (so mythology over things like cables and flowery descriptions of sound were more rampant).
- steve1977 4y ago
  A pair of Genelec 8351 is around 7000 USD. Add a subwoofer and you’re not too far from 10k. There’s also many other brands in high end production facilities like for example ATC which easily exceed 10-15k a pair.
_yb2s 4y ago
But consider also the (IMO irrational) devaluing of 'used' items in the USA. I have a great sounding set of older high end floor speakers I pulled for free from a dumpster... one subwoofer had a small tear in it, and I was able to glue that up with no apparent sound quality degradation, and then later replace the entire sub when one came up cheap on eBay. I often see fairly high quality floor speakers for near free at thrift stores, etc. To be fair, I am talking about things that were probably $1-2k new, and I don't feel that I could personally tell the difference from that and something $10k new. Especially with the real world high noise floor- vehicles outside, pets, kids, etc.
brianmcc 4y ago
I think the key to it is using the listening rooms that hi fi shops often offer, and being honest with oneself about whether the impact is really tangible or not. Be a while before I can justify even contemplating that sort of hifi spend anyway so I shall proceed in blissful ignorance for now :-)
umeshunni 4y ago
> 10-15k Is that in USD?
- 4gotunameagain 4y ago
  whether that is any major western currency such as USD, EUR, CAD, CHF, GBP or AUD, it doesn't really matter when the error bar is that big
  - vijayr02 4y ago
    It could be JPY ;)
    - umeshunni 4y ago
      That's what I was wondering, as that amount in USD (or EUR/GBP etc) seems like a ridiculous amount of money to spend on speakers, even to me, a well off US-ian.
      - vijayr02 4y ago
        Uh.. while my comment was firmly tongue in cheek I don’t think you realise how ridiculous these things can get. https://shop.martinshifi.co.uk/products/b-w-nautilus?variant=1225344225&currency=GBP https://shop.martinshifi.co.uk/products/b-w-nautilus?variant... Can be yours for the bargain price of GBP 57,750
        ChoGGi 4y ago
        Oh, a budget pair of speakers. I think the gentleman is looking for something a bit more high class sir. https://hifi-products.com/Transmission-Audio-Transmission-Audio-ULTIMATE-speaker-76-PicFront.html https://hifi-products.com/Transmission-Audio-Transmission-Au...
        umeshunni 4y ago
        Thank you. Speakers that weigh more than a few cars and cost more than a nice condo in a major city are exactly what I was looking for.

10-15k (mostly in speakers) is around when you start experiencing strongly diminishing returns. Some really nice floorstanding speakers though offer a jaw dropping improvement that’s measurable.

nvarsj 4y ago

Lower that by an order of magnitude. Genelecs are some of the most common studio monitors and they are way less than that. A pair of JBL 308ps for $700 is the point of diminishing returns for accurate reproduction. Only reason to spend more is aesthetics, features, and SPL (fair enough). Most of the budget in high end production facilities goes into room design and acoustics.

alfalfasprout 4y ago
So, two things: 1. Studio monitors are chosen for their flat response curve over a given range not because they: a) accurately cover a large frequency range including bass, b) have exceptional clarity and ultra low distortion. 2. Bookshelf speakers can get really good but they ultimately require subwoofers to cover lower frequencies and that requires not only a good subwoofer with excellent clarity. 3. The vast, vast majority of studios master audio to sound good on a wide range of devices ranging from smartphone speakers to earbuds to $50 soundbars. And ultimately with the "loudness wars" still in full swing, dynamic range compression is widely used. I don't disagree with you that room treatment is of paramount importance. But there is a very, very noticeable difference hearing a good recording over a pair of floorstanding full range speakers with excellent tweeters+woofers and a decent amp. My point a good setup including subwoofer+crossovers+bookshelf speakers that hits the point of diminishing returns tends to approach the $10-15k mark including amp. Some things are a total waste of money. Fancy power cables, super-expensive amps with zero measurements to justify the cost. Snake oil stuff like special ethernet cables, etc. But speakers, as the highest distortion element of the audio chain, absolutely improve noticeably even up to $10-15k or so. I purchased some GoldenEar Triton One.R speakers a few years ago and they still blow people's minds when they listen to them. Everything from the bass to the treble are crystal clear yet not fatiguing.
- nvarsj 4y ago
  > absolutely improve noticeably even up to $10-15k Except, they don't. The only reason to buy a 15k speaker is to gain a higher SPL before distortion kicks in, or you want some cool feature or aesthetics. For a home user just seeking good (accurate) music reproduction, there is not much point to spending more than a couple grand on a 2.1 system. Beyond that, you are best to spend money on EQ, then room treatments and extra subs to try and sort out the low end (the most challenging aspect of music reproduction).
  - alfalfasprout 4y ago
    > there is not much point to spending more than a couple grand on a 2.1 system. Well, that's a personal choice right? Improvements are noticeable up to the point I mentioned. But is it worth it? Nobody can possibly answer that for you.
    - aforwardslash 4y ago
      There are actually some streaming services offering atmos and high-res audio, so the market is actually quite interesting right now if you have the budget for the equipment. A top of the line experience will cost you a bit north of $1000 per channel assuming you dont get too picky with the speakers, do would be 7+2 -> 9K for a full blown domestic system. The audiophile crowd is buying 2 channel dac systems at a third of that value, just because.
- jimnotgym 4y ago
  > . 3. The vast, vast majority of studios master audio to sound good on a wide range of devices ranging from smartphone speakers to earbuds to $50 soundbars. Great. So I really don't need the expensive stuff then. It will actually be a distortion of what the engineer intended
  - tt65456 4y ago
    You don't need the super-expensive stuff anyways. But you're obviously not going to get full frequency range (especially bass) on smartphone speakers. Additionally, a few genres (notably some jazz and Western classical) as well as select recordings here and there actually do not have "loudness war" issues and might actually have good dynamics. For these, it's nice to have a system that can handle, say, the full blown volume swings of a Romantic-era symphony. You can probably fulfill these requirements with a system far under $15K. :) I actually was under the impression that the audiophile market (at least the stereotypical) was fairly "dead"; it was more of a thing in, say, the 1970s-1980s phenomenon (with a follow-up in the late 1990s with the home theater boom) when the gap between consumer electronics and hi-end electronics was a lot bigger, and there was a lot less technical information out there (so mythology over things like cables and flowery descriptions of sound were more rampant).
steve1977 4y ago
A pair of Genelec 8351 is around 7000 USD. Add a subwoofer and you’re not too far from 10k. There’s also many other brands in high end production facilities like for example ATC which easily exceed 10-15k a pair.

_yb2s 4y ago

But consider also the (IMO irrational) devaluing of 'used' items in the USA. I have a great sounding set of older high end floor speakers I pulled for free from a dumpster... one subwoofer had a small tear in it, and I was able to glue that up with no apparent sound quality degradation, and then later replace the entire sub when one came up cheap on eBay. I often see fairly high quality floor speakers for near free at thrift stores, etc. To be fair, I am talking about things that were probably $1-2k new, and I don't feel that I could personally tell the difference from that and something $10k new. Especially with the real world high noise floor- vehicles outside, pets, kids, etc.

brianmcc 4y ago

I think the key to it is using the listening rooms that hi fi shops often offer, and being honest with oneself about whether the impact is really tangible or not. Be a while before I can justify even contemplating that sort of hifi spend anyway so I shall proceed in blissful ignorance for now :-)

umeshunni 4y ago

> 10-15k Is that in USD?

4gotunameagain 4y ago
whether that is any major western currency such as USD, EUR, CAD, CHF, GBP or AUD, it doesn't really matter when the error bar is that big
- vijayr02 4y ago
  It could be JPY ;)
  - umeshunni 4y ago
    That's what I was wondering, as that amount in USD (or EUR/GBP etc) seems like a ridiculous amount of money to spend on speakers, even to me, a well off US-ian.
    - vijayr02 4y ago
      Uh.. while my comment was firmly tongue in cheek I don’t think you realise how ridiculous these things can get. https://shop.martinshifi.co.uk/products/b-w-nautilus?variant=1225344225&currency=GBP https://shop.martinshifi.co.uk/products/b-w-nautilus?variant... Can be yours for the bargain price of GBP 57,750
      - ChoGGi 4y ago
        Oh, a budget pair of speakers. I think the gentleman is looking for something a bit more high class sir. https://hifi-products.com/Transmission-Audio-Transmission-Audio-ULTIMATE-speaker-76-PicFront.html https://hifi-products.com/Transmission-Audio-Transmission-Au...
        umeshunni 4y ago
        Thank you. Speakers that weigh more than a few cars and cost more than a nice condo in a major city are exactly what I was looking for.