4 ms·

Maybe I worded things poorly, but I understood your point: everyone would want to live in high-density housing if only they were better informed of how great it

Maybe I worded things poorly, but I understood your point: everyone would want to live in high-density housing if only they were better informed of how great it is. My point is that that's flat out wrong. Many people know from experience what that life entails and want nothing to do with it. And yes, that includes the idealized fantasy version you present in other comments, even if that actually existed. The "put" thing comes from my perception that you think the only reason someone could disagree with you on this is because they're misinformed. Maybe I've got you all wrong, but that mindset tends to eventually feel justified in forcing people to do things "for their own good". I'll reply to your other comment here so we don't have to juggle multiple threads of conversation: Anecdotally, my experience of cities vs. small towns has been the opposite of yours. Almost every apartment complex I've lived in has had one "nosy neighbor" that insists on gossiping about everyone's affairs and causing drama with everyone they can sink their social hooks into. But that's not really relevant--you prefer cities and I prefer small towns. That's fine. I'm perfectly happy for everyone to live in whichever of those suits them best, or some other arrangement. You're the one who wants to prescribe a one-size-fits-all lifestyle for everyone.

strogonoff 4y ago
> Maybe I worded things poorly, but I understood your point: everyone would want to live in high-density housing if only they were better informed of how great it is. Would you want to stop using disposable plastic straws because of how awesome paper straws are? No. Would you want to stop using them if it was required to stop microplastics from appearing in your blood stream and organ tissue? Let’s imagine a positive answer for a moment. Now, apparently there are people who consider abandoning plastic straws absolutely hands-down unthinkable sacrilege. So the natural question is: why? Let’s pretend their refusal to ditch plastic straws actually hurts not only theirs but also your own body and bodies of your children, so you really want to find out the answer. Eventually we might find out that some people really hate paper straws because they become soggy quickly and give paper taste to their drinks. While I don’t think either argument against paper straws (which are, incidentally, not the only alternative) outweighs the harm from the prevalence of single-use plastic straws, I can at least understand the reasoning because I, too, can notice the taste and the sogginess. That’s one analogy; so I want to know what that argument is with regards to high-density living. The arguments I heard so far are mostly misguided (no forests nearby!), refer to problems not specific to high density living (nosy neighbors!), and such. > Many people know from experience what that life entails and want nothing to do with it. Every time I talk about it in various crowds, online and off, all counter-arguments come exclusively from people who grew up in suburbia, smaller or sprawling low-density towns and cities, and they have a very skewed picture that is mostly a product of their imagination. If you have lived in a well-planned high-density (say at least 20 thousand people per square kilometer of residential area) city, you’d be the first! > And yes, that includes the idealized fantasy version you present in other comments, even if that actually existed As I wrote, the technology to live comfortably with little footprint is here—I didn’t mention it’s applied in practice much less evenly distributed. And it is not applied in practice because it’s not popular, so such areas are simply not built. And it’s not popular… Because? This is the question we’re addressing here. So let’s see what is the argument from you, as someone who lived in high-density urban areas with apparently adverse experience that is unique to those areas. > Almost every apartment complex I've lived in has had one "nosy neighbor" that insists on gossiping about everyone's affairs and causing drama with everyone they can sink their social hooks into. Did you ever have an issue with neighbors in sparser areas (like low rise apartment buildings or standalone housing)? I’ve had plenty. Shady people hanging around, people renting out flats or standalone houses to loud party goers, etc. Could it be that it isn’t about high or low density but about something else, like crime rates, mental health care, regulation of short term rentals, education availability, unemployment levels, poverty? By the way, in my experience it’s significantly more acute in lower density suburbia and sparse cities because there’s few enough people that it feels not only rude to not engage but also unsafe because if a person whom you can expect to see periodically turns out to be unstable there may be no witnesses and/or the police may be too far away to respond in timely manner. To sum up, while it doesn’t have much to do with higher density living, this is the only argument on the substance that you have put forward. Thanks! > But that's not really relevant--you prefer cities and I prefer small towns. That's fine. Not really, no. Assuming limiting humanity’s footprint is the only feasible option in the future, people like you will either be highly uncomfortable or sabotage the future of the planet. Neither is a good outcome.
- roarcher 4y ago
  > Now, apparently there are people who consider abandoning plastic straws absolutely hands-down unthinkable sacrilege. It's not an "unthinkable sacrilege", it's a fart in the wind. It's something that politicians and trendy restaurant owners do to make themselves feel like they're solving a problem while making zero effort. The reality is that it doesn't make the tiniest dent in the problem. Classic slacktivism. > The arguments I heard so far are mostly misguided (no forests nearby!), refer to problems not specific to high density living (nosy neighbors!), and such. Maybe I want to live in the forest. Yes I know, that's terrible because I and the rest of humanity are a blight upon the earth that must be contained, right? Here are just a few problems that are definitely more prevalent in high-density areas: piss-soaked front steps on my building, high traffic (yes, I'm sure you have a "car free" solution to this, which is undoubtedly just as unappealing as the rest of your cosmopolitan utopia), neighbors pounding on my walls, and being accosted for money every time I walk outside. I could go on. > the technology to live comfortably with little footprint is here In another comment you explain that "comfort" means to you "suitable temperature and humidity, clean air, soft bed, clean water and so on". If your mindset is such that you think that's what people like me are worried about, then I'm not sure you're even capable of understanding what we're actually worried about. Suffice it to say that I am not interested in being an interchangeable unit of economic production to be kept in a neat little pod by my technocratic betters. Yes, even if it has "suitable temperature and humidity" LMAO. Do you actually think that the only thing humans want out of life is for their physical needs to be met? > such areas are simply not built. Exactly, so you don't even know if they would have all the wonderful attributes you extol. How about you go build one, and we'll see? Prove your idea and watch people come, instead of herding all of humanity into an experiment. > Did you ever have an issue with... No, I actually haven't. But like I said, it doesn't matter. I don't doubt that other people have these negative experiences, and they're free to go somewhere that they would be happier. Remember, I'm not the one trying to dictate where people can live. If you prefer cities, then by all means, live in one! I'll stay in my small town. Win-win. I'm not sure why you're trying so hard to convince people of the benefits of city life. It's clear that if you had the authority, you'd herd them all into your skyscrapers whether they like it or not. Why waste your energy pretending that you care what people want or have any respect for their autonomy?

strogonoff 4y ago

> Maybe I worded things poorly, but I understood your point: everyone would want to live in high-density housing if only they were better informed of how great it is. Would you want to stop using disposable plastic straws because of how awesome paper straws are? No. Would you want to stop using them if it was required to stop microplastics from appearing in your blood stream and organ tissue? Let’s imagine a positive answer for a moment. Now, apparently there are people who consider abandoning plastic straws absolutely hands-down unthinkable sacrilege. So the natural question is: why? Let’s pretend their refusal to ditch plastic straws actually hurts not only theirs but also your own body and bodies of your children, so you really want to find out the answer. Eventually we might find out that some people really hate paper straws because they become soggy quickly and give paper taste to their drinks. While I don’t think either argument against paper straws (which are, incidentally, not the only alternative) outweighs the harm from the prevalence of single-use plastic straws, I can at least understand the reasoning because I, too, can notice the taste and the sogginess. That’s one analogy; so I want to know what that argument is with regards to high-density living. The arguments I heard so far are mostly misguided (no forests nearby!), refer to problems not specific to high density living (nosy neighbors!), and such. > Many people know from experience what that life entails and want nothing to do with it. Every time I talk about it in various crowds, online and off, all counter-arguments come exclusively from people who grew up in suburbia, smaller or sprawling low-density towns and cities, and they have a very skewed picture that is mostly a product of their imagination. If you have lived in a well-planned high-density (say at least 20 thousand people per square kilometer of residential area) city, you’d be the first! > And yes, that includes the idealized fantasy version you present in other comments, even if that actually existed As I wrote, the technology to live comfortably with little footprint is here—I didn’t mention it’s applied in practice much less evenly distributed. And it is not applied in practice because it’s not popular, so such areas are simply not built. And it’s not popular… Because? This is the question we’re addressing here. So let’s see what is the argument from you, as someone who lived in high-density urban areas with apparently adverse experience that is unique to those areas. > Almost every apartment complex I've lived in has had one "nosy neighbor" that insists on gossiping about everyone's affairs and causing drama with everyone they can sink their social hooks into. Did you ever have an issue with neighbors in sparser areas (like low rise apartment buildings or standalone housing)? I’ve had plenty. Shady people hanging around, people renting out flats or standalone houses to loud party goers, etc. Could it be that it isn’t about high or low density but about something else, like crime rates, mental health care, regulation of short term rentals, education availability, unemployment levels, poverty? By the way, in my experience it’s significantly more acute in lower density suburbia and sparse cities because there’s few enough people that it feels not only rude to not engage but also unsafe because if a person whom you can expect to see periodically turns out to be unstable there may be no witnesses and/or the police may be too far away to respond in timely manner. To sum up, while it doesn’t have much to do with higher density living, this is the only argument on the substance that you have put forward. Thanks! > But that's not really relevant--you prefer cities and I prefer small towns. That's fine. Not really, no. Assuming limiting humanity’s footprint is the only feasible option in the future, people like you will either be highly uncomfortable or sabotage the future of the planet. Neither is a good outcome.

roarcher 4y ago
> Now, apparently there are people who consider abandoning plastic straws absolutely hands-down unthinkable sacrilege. It's not an "unthinkable sacrilege", it's a fart in the wind. It's something that politicians and trendy restaurant owners do to make themselves feel like they're solving a problem while making zero effort. The reality is that it doesn't make the tiniest dent in the problem. Classic slacktivism. > The arguments I heard so far are mostly misguided (no forests nearby!), refer to problems not specific to high density living (nosy neighbors!), and such. Maybe I want to live in the forest. Yes I know, that's terrible because I and the rest of humanity are a blight upon the earth that must be contained, right? Here are just a few problems that are definitely more prevalent in high-density areas: piss-soaked front steps on my building, high traffic (yes, I'm sure you have a "car free" solution to this, which is undoubtedly just as unappealing as the rest of your cosmopolitan utopia), neighbors pounding on my walls, and being accosted for money every time I walk outside. I could go on. > the technology to live comfortably with little footprint is here In another comment you explain that "comfort" means to you "suitable temperature and humidity, clean air, soft bed, clean water and so on". If your mindset is such that you think that's what people like me are worried about, then I'm not sure you're even capable of understanding what we're actually worried about. Suffice it to say that I am not interested in being an interchangeable unit of economic production to be kept in a neat little pod by my technocratic betters. Yes, even if it has "suitable temperature and humidity" LMAO. Do you actually think that the only thing humans want out of life is for their physical needs to be met? > such areas are simply not built. Exactly, so you don't even know if they would have all the wonderful attributes you extol. How about you go build one, and we'll see? Prove your idea and watch people come, instead of herding all of humanity into an experiment. > Did you ever have an issue with... No, I actually haven't. But like I said, it doesn't matter. I don't doubt that other people have these negative experiences, and they're free to go somewhere that they would be happier. Remember, I'm not the one trying to dictate where people can live. If you prefer cities, then by all means, live in one! I'll stay in my small town. Win-win. I'm not sure why you're trying so hard to convince people of the benefits of city life. It's clear that if you had the authority, you'd herd them all into your skyscrapers whether they like it or not. Why waste your energy pretending that you care what people want or have any respect for their autonomy?