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Make it really really expensive seems to be a really critical part of the business model for audiophile product. I opened up Stereophile magazine on apple news

Make it really really expensive seems to be a really critical part of the business model for audiophile product. I opened up Stereophile magazine on apple news recently and their was a breathless review of a $10,000 external DAC. They had a gut shot, so I started looking at it. The whole thing was just a fancy box & power supply driving a $20 off the shelf DAC chip. I'd go out on a limb and guess you can probably find a $100-200 DAC with the same chip in it that no one is ever going to be able to tell apart from the $10,000 one. The $10,000 one didn't even have a particularly flashy looking enclosure!

JohnBooty 4y ago
I'd go out on a limb and guess you can probably find a $100-200 DAC with the same chip in it that no one is ever going to be able to tell apart from the $10,000 one. Good news! You're right, and there are a lot of inexpensive, engineering-driven "audiophile" products that do exactly what you say. Topping, Schitt, JDS Labs, and SMSL are a few who offer outstanding products in that $100-$200 price range. For example, here's a unit from Topping that combines a top notch DAC and headphone amplifier for $200. Objective measurements taken with a very expensive AudioPrecision analyzer: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-dx3-pro-review-dac-headphone-amp.27148/ https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/t... $129 DAC, made in America, also very close to state of the art objective performance: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/schiit-modi-dac-review.39435/ https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/s... It's fun (and actually, important) to laugh at the audiophile lunatic fringe, but most of us don't play that way.
- ben7799 4y ago
  I have several pieces of Schitt gear. I don't have one of their external DACs though, the digital pieces I have in my setup have very nice DACs that I like. Those internal DACs have similar chips to what is in the Schitt DACs.
  - JohnBooty 4y ago
    That's true. Also, what we actually hear is the analog output stage surrounding the DAC far more than the DAC itself. That's the part that OEMs either get right or fudge up. A top of the line DAC is just a few bucks in quantity: https://octopart.com/ak4493eq-akm+semiconductor-88954630 https://octopart.com/ak4493eq-akm+semiconductor-88954630 But, a naive implementation (say, throwing it on a computer motherboard where the analog output stage is subject to interference hell) is maybe not going to sound great, compared to a better implementation of a lesser DAC.
kobalsky 4y ago
you can have the same dac on different boards and on one it can work perfectly and in the other it could hizz like crazy. there's a lot of engineering going on to reduce noise and the analog part in the DAC is greatly affected by the rest of the electronics, it's not just ones and zeros. most people won't notice the difference of course but there's a reason professional audio equipment costs a fortune.
- NoPicklez 4y ago
  I think their point is that "there's a reason audio equipment costs a fortune", doesn't really explain what that is. Therefore, it's potentially easy to tell low grade hardware and simply market it as being legendary
JohnFen 4y ago
> Make it really really expensive seems to be a really critical part of the business model for audiophile product I took a marketing class once that talked about this effect. If you have a crappy product, there are two pricing models you can go for: sell it cheap, or make it pretty and sell it for a lot of money. Often the latter, which is a scam, is the better option from a pure business point of view. The reason is because people perceive expensive things as being higher quality regardless of whether they really are or not, and also people are very resistant to admitting to their friends that they got ripped off -- so they'll frequently keep singing the virtues of an expensive piece of junk even when they know it has no virtues. So products can still get good "word of mouth" advertising regardless, as long as the price point is sufficiently high.
- unnouinceput 4y ago
  [flagged]
- jalk 4y ago
  Hästens beds anyone?
8note 4y ago
If you want a really clean output on a DAC, I recall you needing a very clean power supply, with $10-100 resistors and capacitors. If you were looking for a cost driver, you may have missed it.
- rasz 4y ago
  Main use case of those $10 resistors is metrology where you measure nanoamps and microvolts.
- JohnBooty 4y ago
  Here's one that costs $129, measures great, and is made in America to boot: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/schiit-modi-dac-review.39435/ https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/s...
- RockRobotRock 4y ago
  Really clean meaning what exactly? at what price point would a DAC be indistinguishable in a blind A/B test to a $10,000 one? I'm not trying to be pedantic I just think it's important to ask these questions.
  - JohnBooty 4y ago
    This is a great question and I'm glad you're asking it. Once you get up to 90-100dB SNR I think most people would say you're well into transparent territory with decent headphones. 120dB is absolute state of the art (and the limit of must measurement gear!) but the difference is academic at that point. Here's how cheap USB-C dongles from Apple and Google stack up with objective measurements: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-apple-vs-google-usb-c-headphone-adapters.5541/ https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/r... Those mini dongles are pretty good, although they're not necessarily exactly world beaters. They're DACs + amplifiers and their amplifier sections don't exactly deliver a lot of current. But for e.g. desktop use you can get a really good DAC + headphone amp combo from Schiit, JDS, Topping, or others for $200ish.
  - grogenaut 4y ago

JohnBooty 4y ago

I'd go out on a limb and guess you can probably find a $100-200 DAC with the same chip in it that no one is ever going to be able to tell apart from the $10,000 one. Good news! You're right, and there are a lot of inexpensive, engineering-driven "audiophile" products that do exactly what you say. Topping, Schitt, JDS Labs, and SMSL are a few who offer outstanding products in that $100-$200 price range. For example, here's a unit from Topping that combines a top notch DAC and headphone amplifier for $200. Objective measurements taken with a very expensive AudioPrecision analyzer: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-dx3-pro-review-dac-headphone-amp.27148/ https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/t... $129 DAC, made in America, also very close to state of the art objective performance: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/schiit-modi-dac-review.39435/ https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/s... It's fun (and actually, important) to laugh at the audiophile lunatic fringe, but most of us don't play that way.

ben7799 4y ago
I have several pieces of Schitt gear. I don't have one of their external DACs though, the digital pieces I have in my setup have very nice DACs that I like. Those internal DACs have similar chips to what is in the Schitt DACs.
- JohnBooty 4y ago
  That's true. Also, what we actually hear is the analog output stage surrounding the DAC far more than the DAC itself. That's the part that OEMs either get right or fudge up. A top of the line DAC is just a few bucks in quantity: https://octopart.com/ak4493eq-akm+semiconductor-88954630 https://octopart.com/ak4493eq-akm+semiconductor-88954630 But, a naive implementation (say, throwing it on a computer motherboard where the analog output stage is subject to interference hell) is maybe not going to sound great, compared to a better implementation of a lesser DAC.

kobalsky 4y ago

you can have the same dac on different boards and on one it can work perfectly and in the other it could hizz like crazy. there's a lot of engineering going on to reduce noise and the analog part in the DAC is greatly affected by the rest of the electronics, it's not just ones and zeros. most people won't notice the difference of course but there's a reason professional audio equipment costs a fortune.

NoPicklez 4y ago
I think their point is that "there's a reason audio equipment costs a fortune", doesn't really explain what that is. Therefore, it's potentially easy to tell low grade hardware and simply market it as being legendary

JohnFen 4y ago

> Make it really really expensive seems to be a really critical part of the business model for audiophile product I took a marketing class once that talked about this effect. If you have a crappy product, there are two pricing models you can go for: sell it cheap, or make it pretty and sell it for a lot of money. Often the latter, which is a scam, is the better option from a pure business point of view. The reason is because people perceive expensive things as being higher quality regardless of whether they really are or not, and also people are very resistant to admitting to their friends that they got ripped off -- so they'll frequently keep singing the virtues of an expensive piece of junk even when they know it has no virtues. So products can still get good "word of mouth" advertising regardless, as long as the price point is sufficiently high.

unnouinceput 4y ago
[flagged]
jalk 4y ago
Hästens beds anyone?

8note 4y ago

If you want a really clean output on a DAC, I recall you needing a very clean power supply, with $10-100 resistors and capacitors. If you were looking for a cost driver, you may have missed it.

rasz 4y ago
Main use case of those $10 resistors is metrology where you measure nanoamps and microvolts.
JohnBooty 4y ago
Here's one that costs $129, measures great, and is made in America to boot: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/schiit-modi-dac-review.39435/ https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/s...
RockRobotRock 4y ago
Really clean meaning what exactly? at what price point would a DAC be indistinguishable in a blind A/B test to a $10,000 one? I'm not trying to be pedantic I just think it's important to ask these questions.
- JohnBooty 4y ago
  This is a great question and I'm glad you're asking it. Once you get up to 90-100dB SNR I think most people would say you're well into transparent territory with decent headphones. 120dB is absolute state of the art (and the limit of must measurement gear!) but the difference is academic at that point. Here's how cheap USB-C dongles from Apple and Google stack up with objective measurements: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-apple-vs-google-usb-c-headphone-adapters.5541/ https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/r... Those mini dongles are pretty good, although they're not necessarily exactly world beaters. They're DACs + amplifiers and their amplifier sections don't exactly deliver a lot of current. But for e.g. desktop use you can get a really good DAC + headphone amp combo from Schiit, JDS, Topping, or others for $200ish.
- grogenaut 4y ago