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>Russia is not some innocent victim being attacked from all sides like they want to paint themselves out to be. Never said they were ... but that was literally

>Russia is not some innocent victim being attacked from all sides like they want to paint themselves out to be. Never said they were ... but that was literally the point of NATO, right? My main point is that this is nuanced. It is not just a one-sided story of maniacal Put-ler ravaging Europe in a bloodthirsty quest of destruction. Again, the US is (generally) considered the "good guys" and look at the shit we are capable of to maintain our influence in the Western hemisphere. And it isn't like Russia is a crippled country on its last gasps of air, it has more nukes than anyone on Earth and that alone means that this shit in Ukraine will only ever be the US feeding Ukrainian soldiers into the meat-grinder and trying to turn Oligarchs salty to prove a point. There will never be a "real win", which would entail an invasion of Russia or giving Ukraine serious weapons to attack Russia with. The very best, pie-in-the-sky that Ukraine can hope for is for Russia to leave a shit-ton of dead Ukrainians when they decide to leave the country. It is a very fucked situation.

sorenjan 4y ago
What was the point of NATO, to attack Russia? If that's what you're implying I don't agree, as far as I know the treaty doesn't say anything about attacking others, only about defending everyone that has signed the treaty if they get attacked. But I'm not part of NATO or very knowledgeable, maybe I'm wrong? My point is that it definitely is one-sided. It's only one of the sides that have invaded the other after years of threatening of doing so. Russia has also done similar things in Georgia and Moldova, and the Baltic countries that have a sizeable Russian population would have an even better reason to be scared right now if they weren't part of NATO. USA isn't feeding Ukrainian soldiers to anyone, that's again falling into the narrative that Russia wants to use that Russia is fighting the west. Ukrainian soldiers are protecting their country just as Finnish soldiers did less than 100 years ago, and they have asked for and received support from other countries sympathetic to the idea that invading countries to take their land by force is undemocratic, illegal, immoral, and worth defending against. Nobody has asked for an invasion of Russia, the win comes when the invaders leave where they don't belong. I agree that it is a very fucked situation, which is why Russia's aggression needs to be condemned and can't be allowed to succeed.
- thriftwy 4y ago
  Nobody in Crimea (and also very few people in e.g. Donetsk) has asked for Ukrainian state to return, but there it goes with Zelensky promising liberation (a.k.a. military invasion) to Crimea. So Russia now contains the war on not-quite-its turf to avoid the war on the turf it considers integral.
  - sorenjan 4y ago
    What would you expect any national leader to say if their territory was invaded? And what about the rest of Ukraine, was the people in Kiev asking to be liberated by the Russian army last year? Russia is currently containing the war on not-at-all-its turf to stall while they're deporting or killing unfriendlies on their illegally annexed territory. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/11/ukraine-russias-unlawful-transfer-of-civilians-a-war-crime-and-likely-a-crime-against-humanity-new-report/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/11/ukraine-russi...
- mhuffman 4y ago
  >What was the point of NATO, to attack Russia? If that's what you're implying I don't agree No. It was to destroy the Soviet Union. And it mostly worked! >My point is that it definitely is one-sided. It's only one of the sides that have invaded the other after years of threatening of doing so. Russia has also done similar things in Georgia and Moldova, and the Baltic countries that have a sizeable Russian population would have an even better reason to be scared right now if they weren't part of NATO. All of this is Russia big-dicking its influence in that area. Just as I said before. >USA isn't feeding Ukrainian soldiers to anyone, that's again falling into the narrative that Russia wants to use that Russia is fighting the west. Ukrainian soldiers are protecting their country just as Finnish soldiers did less than 100 years ago Ukrainian soldiers are hauling ass out of the country and being conscripted into the war (just the other day a young man committed suicide rather than go to war) >Nobody has asked for an invasion of Russia, the win comes when the invaders leave where they don't belong. How do you stop the "invaders" from coming back again then? >I agree that it is a very fucked situation, which is why Russia's aggression needs to be condemned and can't be allowed to succeed. I agree it is fucked. I don't agree that Russia is a maniac country just doing crazy attacks willy-nilly. These have been thought out. And there is no innocent country on Earth. That is propaganda as well. Russia is doing two things from my perspective. First, displaying that if NATO moves military bases close to them it is going to cost. Second, they are trying desperately to retain influence in that area that they used to have back when they were the 2nd super power on Earth, but have since been passed by China.

sorenjan 4y ago

What was the point of NATO, to attack Russia? If that's what you're implying I don't agree, as far as I know the treaty doesn't say anything about attacking others, only about defending everyone that has signed the treaty if they get attacked. But I'm not part of NATO or very knowledgeable, maybe I'm wrong? My point is that it definitely is one-sided. It's only one of the sides that have invaded the other after years of threatening of doing so. Russia has also done similar things in Georgia and Moldova, and the Baltic countries that have a sizeable Russian population would have an even better reason to be scared right now if they weren't part of NATO. USA isn't feeding Ukrainian soldiers to anyone, that's again falling into the narrative that Russia wants to use that Russia is fighting the west. Ukrainian soldiers are protecting their country just as Finnish soldiers did less than 100 years ago, and they have asked for and received support from other countries sympathetic to the idea that invading countries to take their land by force is undemocratic, illegal, immoral, and worth defending against. Nobody has asked for an invasion of Russia, the win comes when the invaders leave where they don't belong. I agree that it is a very fucked situation, which is why Russia's aggression needs to be condemned and can't be allowed to succeed.

thriftwy 4y ago
Nobody in Crimea (and also very few people in e.g. Donetsk) has asked for Ukrainian state to return, but there it goes with Zelensky promising liberation (a.k.a. military invasion) to Crimea. So Russia now contains the war on not-quite-its turf to avoid the war on the turf it considers integral.
- sorenjan 4y ago
  What would you expect any national leader to say if their territory was invaded? And what about the rest of Ukraine, was the people in Kiev asking to be liberated by the Russian army last year? Russia is currently containing the war on not-at-all-its turf to stall while they're deporting or killing unfriendlies on their illegally annexed territory. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/11/ukraine-russias-unlawful-transfer-of-civilians-a-war-crime-and-likely-a-crime-against-humanity-new-report/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/11/ukraine-russi...
mhuffman 4y ago
>What was the point of NATO, to attack Russia? If that's what you're implying I don't agree No. It was to destroy the Soviet Union. And it mostly worked! >My point is that it definitely is one-sided. It's only one of the sides that have invaded the other after years of threatening of doing so. Russia has also done similar things in Georgia and Moldova, and the Baltic countries that have a sizeable Russian population would have an even better reason to be scared right now if they weren't part of NATO. All of this is Russia big-dicking its influence in that area. Just as I said before. >USA isn't feeding Ukrainian soldiers to anyone, that's again falling into the narrative that Russia wants to use that Russia is fighting the west. Ukrainian soldiers are protecting their country just as Finnish soldiers did less than 100 years ago Ukrainian soldiers are hauling ass out of the country and being conscripted into the war (just the other day a young man committed suicide rather than go to war) >Nobody has asked for an invasion of Russia, the win comes when the invaders leave where they don't belong. How do you stop the "invaders" from coming back again then? >I agree that it is a very fucked situation, which is why Russia's aggression needs to be condemned and can't be allowed to succeed. I agree it is fucked. I don't agree that Russia is a maniac country just doing crazy attacks willy-nilly. These have been thought out. And there is no innocent country on Earth. That is propaganda as well. Russia is doing two things from my perspective. First, displaying that if NATO moves military bases close to them it is going to cost. Second, they are trying desperately to retain influence in that area that they used to have back when they were the 2nd super power on Earth, but have since been passed by China.