3 ms·

I think one model with the bog standard stuff and one with the modules is a good compromise, or will be when they're more established and can afford the overhea

I think one model with the bog standard stuff and one with the modules is a good compromise, or will be when they're more established and can afford the overhead you correctly point out. Right now they're very much a startup, and so I agree with you that it makes sense for them as a company right now.

Dalewyn 4y ago
>bog standard stuff That's the question, though: What is "bog standard"? Apple will tell you bog standard is two USB-C ports. A tech enthusiast will tell you bog standard is at least 10 mixed USB-A and -C ports, at least three DisplayPorts, at least one ethernet jack, and a headphone jack. Jane Average over there will tell you bog standard is a power button. A DIYer will tell you bog standard is GPIO and serial. USB-IF will tell you bog standard is USB4.11 For Workgroups Revision 5 Type D 50gbps 2x4.
- IYasha 4y ago
  There was one laptop made by ASUS. It had SO much connectivity in a 12" case no one attempted ever since. And it would be the best if not for poor battery life. But the battery was swappable. The model is U6Sg. If I could buy anything like that today (with good battery life and AMD processor), I'd be happy.
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
  Pretty sure Jane Average would also include a charging port ;) Joking aside, to my mind bog standard is by definition not given by Apple, enthusiasts, hardware hackers, USB-IF, or someone who never needs a port ever. My mom is very tech illiterate and even she uses a cheap wireless mouse, and other USB stuff. It's obviously something Framework would have to research and think about. But I don't think it's unreasonable to say there is some definition of bog standard that should be able to serve 80% of customers. Where the 20% is made up of various niches that are happy to pay a premium for the modularity because they really need it.
- djur 4y ago
  Well, the Framework doesn't give you most of those options. You get 4 total of any of the following: USB-A, USB-C, DisplayPort, HDMI, MicroSD, Ethernet. (In practice a USB-C is mandatory for charging.) Plus built-in headphone. If you want any more than that, or anything different, you're gonna need a USB dongle like any other laptop.
- tracker1 4y ago
  At this point, for better or worse, and I know some may not like it... would be almost all USB-C. With thunderbolt, power delivery and video adapter options over the port, there's really not much reason to go otherwise, noting that some ports are not the same. One option might be to have a backplate adapter similar to ATX motherboards, where that just slots into the case itself attached to the motherboard... so Gen 3 could have 3x usb-c, 1 usb-a and a 4-pole headphone jack... Then all usb-c + headphone a generation after... but the horizontal spacing pre-defined like ATX backplane.
  - regularfry 4y ago
    The problem with forcing everything over USB-C is that you end up overloading hubs. I have four laptops in front of me, and I've got a setup in front of me that just about works tolerably, but: 1. None of the machines I have to switch between have remotely enough sockets for the USB devices I actually need to use. Mouse, keyboard, headset, external webcam, yubikey are all USB-A. For the machines I've got that are USB-C only I need at least two hubs daisy-chained if I want to have the first in the chain be something I can put in my bag. 2. If I try to power some of them through the hub, they complain that they can't get enough power. 3. If I plug those same ones into the power directly, I don't have enough ports to also have a USB-C monitor connection, forcing that over onto HDMI. 4. Only one of the machines I use has an HDMI socket, but the hub I tend to use has one so that's usually fine. 5. It's not fine on my XPS13, which for some reason can't power both its own screen and the external screen when plugged into the hub, and it goes into a flickery loop as it tries, fails, and resets. So that's either lid-closed-only, or is the only device connected over USB-C as a direct connection, which means an extra plug to plug in for only that laptop, and I end up fiddling with the screen controls every time I switch to it. This is supposed to be a unified ecosystem but it just falls apart in practice, and my desk has never had more wiring all over it. I get that I'm an outlier here: two work laptops, two personal laptops, and regularly needing to use any of them, but there's nothing I'm trying to do that's outside what USB-C claims to be within its sphere of capability. Maybe the problem is the hub I've got but if that's the case I can't see how you're supposed to make better purchases. The ecosystem just seems to be broken.
    - 4y ago

Dalewyn 4y ago

>bog standard stuff That's the question, though: What is "bog standard"? Apple will tell you bog standard is two USB-C ports. A tech enthusiast will tell you bog standard is at least 10 mixed USB-A and -C ports, at least three DisplayPorts, at least one ethernet jack, and a headphone jack. Jane Average over there will tell you bog standard is a power button. A DIYer will tell you bog standard is GPIO and serial. USB-IF will tell you bog standard is USB4.11 For Workgroups Revision 5 Type D 50gbps 2x4.

IYasha 4y ago
There was one laptop made by ASUS. It had SO much connectivity in a 12" case no one attempted ever since. And it would be the best if not for poor battery life. But the battery was swappable. The model is U6Sg. If I could buy anything like that today (with good battery life and AMD processor), I'd be happy.
mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
Pretty sure Jane Average would also include a charging port ;) Joking aside, to my mind bog standard is by definition not given by Apple, enthusiasts, hardware hackers, USB-IF, or someone who never needs a port ever. My mom is very tech illiterate and even she uses a cheap wireless mouse, and other USB stuff. It's obviously something Framework would have to research and think about. But I don't think it's unreasonable to say there is some definition of bog standard that should be able to serve 80% of customers. Where the 20% is made up of various niches that are happy to pay a premium for the modularity because they really need it.
djur 4y ago
Well, the Framework doesn't give you most of those options. You get 4 total of any of the following: USB-A, USB-C, DisplayPort, HDMI, MicroSD, Ethernet. (In practice a USB-C is mandatory for charging.) Plus built-in headphone. If you want any more than that, or anything different, you're gonna need a USB dongle like any other laptop.
tracker1 4y ago
At this point, for better or worse, and I know some may not like it... would be almost all USB-C. With thunderbolt, power delivery and video adapter options over the port, there's really not much reason to go otherwise, noting that some ports are not the same. One option might be to have a backplate adapter similar to ATX motherboards, where that just slots into the case itself attached to the motherboard... so Gen 3 could have 3x usb-c, 1 usb-a and a 4-pole headphone jack... Then all usb-c + headphone a generation after... but the horizontal spacing pre-defined like ATX backplane.
- regularfry 4y ago
  The problem with forcing everything over USB-C is that you end up overloading hubs. I have four laptops in front of me, and I've got a setup in front of me that just about works tolerably, but: 1. None of the machines I have to switch between have remotely enough sockets for the USB devices I actually need to use. Mouse, keyboard, headset, external webcam, yubikey are all USB-A. For the machines I've got that are USB-C only I need at least two hubs daisy-chained if I want to have the first in the chain be something I can put in my bag. 2. If I try to power some of them through the hub, they complain that they can't get enough power. 3. If I plug those same ones into the power directly, I don't have enough ports to also have a USB-C monitor connection, forcing that over onto HDMI. 4. Only one of the machines I use has an HDMI socket, but the hub I tend to use has one so that's usually fine. 5. It's not fine on my XPS13, which for some reason can't power both its own screen and the external screen when plugged into the hub, and it goes into a flickery loop as it tries, fails, and resets. So that's either lid-closed-only, or is the only device connected over USB-C as a direct connection, which means an extra plug to plug in for only that laptop, and I end up fiddling with the screen controls every time I switch to it. This is supposed to be a unified ecosystem but it just falls apart in practice, and my desk has never had more wiring all over it. I get that I'm an outlier here: two work laptops, two personal laptops, and regularly needing to use any of them, but there's nothing I'm trying to do that's outside what USB-C claims to be within its sphere of capability. Maybe the problem is the hub I've got but if that's the case I can't see how you're supposed to make better purchases. The ecosystem just seems to be broken.
  - 4y ago