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Russia wants to push the narrative that the war is about NATO or Ukrainian nazis or helping suppressed Russians or whatever they're claiming today. The truth is

Russia wants to push the narrative that the war is about NATO or Ukrainian nazis or helping suppressed Russians or whatever they're claiming today. The truth is they started the war in 2014 when the Ukrainian people made it clear they wanted to get closer to the EU and further from Russia. Putin wants his empire, he mourns the dissolution of Soviet and calls it "the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century". He published a weird manifesto about Ukraine in 2021 about how Ukraine isn't a real country without Russia. He can't stand the thought of a free Ukraine that's part of the European community, it has nothing to do with NATO expansion. As further proof of this he has said that he's not concerned about Sweden and Finland joining NATO after their applications, even though Russia threatened both countries with military actions previously. And you also have to remember why these countries in eastern Europe are part of NATO: to protect themselves against Russian aggression. The Baltic states remember clearly what it was like to be invaded by Russia, as do Poland. Russia is not some innocent victim being attacked from all sides like they want to paint themselves out to be. They're imperialists and in their own official propaganda they claim to be saviours against the decadent west. Lavrov called gender neutral bathrooms dehumanizing for instance.

mhuffman 4y ago
>Russia is not some innocent victim being attacked from all sides like they want to paint themselves out to be. Never said they were ... but that was literally the point of NATO, right? My main point is that this is nuanced. It is not just a one-sided story of maniacal Put-ler ravaging Europe in a bloodthirsty quest of destruction. Again, the US is (generally) considered the "good guys" and look at the shit we are capable of to maintain our influence in the Western hemisphere. And it isn't like Russia is a crippled country on its last gasps of air, it has more nukes than anyone on Earth and that alone means that this shit in Ukraine will only ever be the US feeding Ukrainian soldiers into the meat-grinder and trying to turn Oligarchs salty to prove a point. There will never be a "real win", which would entail an invasion of Russia or giving Ukraine serious weapons to attack Russia with. The very best, pie-in-the-sky that Ukraine can hope for is for Russia to leave a shit-ton of dead Ukrainians when they decide to leave the country. It is a very fucked situation.
- sorenjan 4y ago
  What was the point of NATO, to attack Russia? If that's what you're implying I don't agree, as far as I know the treaty doesn't say anything about attacking others, only about defending everyone that has signed the treaty if they get attacked. But I'm not part of NATO or very knowledgeable, maybe I'm wrong? My point is that it definitely is one-sided. It's only one of the sides that have invaded the other after years of threatening of doing so. Russia has also done similar things in Georgia and Moldova, and the Baltic countries that have a sizeable Russian population would have an even better reason to be scared right now if they weren't part of NATO. USA isn't feeding Ukrainian soldiers to anyone, that's again falling into the narrative that Russia wants to use that Russia is fighting the west. Ukrainian soldiers are protecting their country just as Finnish soldiers did less than 100 years ago, and they have asked for and received support from other countries sympathetic to the idea that invading countries to take their land by force is undemocratic, illegal, immoral, and worth defending against. Nobody has asked for an invasion of Russia, the win comes when the invaders leave where they don't belong. I agree that it is a very fucked situation, which is why Russia's aggression needs to be condemned and can't be allowed to succeed.
  - thriftwy 4y ago
    Nobody in Crimea (and also very few people in e.g. Donetsk) has asked for Ukrainian state to return, but there it goes with Zelensky promising liberation (a.k.a. military invasion) to Crimea. So Russia now contains the war on not-quite-its turf to avoid the war on the turf it considers integral.
    - sorenjan 4y ago
      What would you expect any national leader to say if their territory was invaded? And what about the rest of Ukraine, was the people in Kiev asking to be liberated by the Russian army last year? Russia is currently containing the war on not-at-all-its turf to stall while they're deporting or killing unfriendlies on their illegally annexed territory. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/11/ukraine-russias-unlawful-transfer-of-civilians-a-war-crime-and-likely-a-crime-against-humanity-new-report/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/11/ukraine-russi...

mhuffman 4y ago

>Russia is not some innocent victim being attacked from all sides like they want to paint themselves out to be. Never said they were ... but that was literally the point of NATO, right? My main point is that this is nuanced. It is not just a one-sided story of maniacal Put-ler ravaging Europe in a bloodthirsty quest of destruction. Again, the US is (generally) considered the "good guys" and look at the shit we are capable of to maintain our influence in the Western hemisphere. And it isn't like Russia is a crippled country on its last gasps of air, it has more nukes than anyone on Earth and that alone means that this shit in Ukraine will only ever be the US feeding Ukrainian soldiers into the meat-grinder and trying to turn Oligarchs salty to prove a point. There will never be a "real win", which would entail an invasion of Russia or giving Ukraine serious weapons to attack Russia with. The very best, pie-in-the-sky that Ukraine can hope for is for Russia to leave a shit-ton of dead Ukrainians when they decide to leave the country. It is a very fucked situation.

sorenjan 4y ago
What was the point of NATO, to attack Russia? If that's what you're implying I don't agree, as far as I know the treaty doesn't say anything about attacking others, only about defending everyone that has signed the treaty if they get attacked. But I'm not part of NATO or very knowledgeable, maybe I'm wrong? My point is that it definitely is one-sided. It's only one of the sides that have invaded the other after years of threatening of doing so. Russia has also done similar things in Georgia and Moldova, and the Baltic countries that have a sizeable Russian population would have an even better reason to be scared right now if they weren't part of NATO. USA isn't feeding Ukrainian soldiers to anyone, that's again falling into the narrative that Russia wants to use that Russia is fighting the west. Ukrainian soldiers are protecting their country just as Finnish soldiers did less than 100 years ago, and they have asked for and received support from other countries sympathetic to the idea that invading countries to take their land by force is undemocratic, illegal, immoral, and worth defending against. Nobody has asked for an invasion of Russia, the win comes when the invaders leave where they don't belong. I agree that it is a very fucked situation, which is why Russia's aggression needs to be condemned and can't be allowed to succeed.
- thriftwy 4y ago
  Nobody in Crimea (and also very few people in e.g. Donetsk) has asked for Ukrainian state to return, but there it goes with Zelensky promising liberation (a.k.a. military invasion) to Crimea. So Russia now contains the war on not-quite-its turf to avoid the war on the turf it considers integral.
  - sorenjan 4y ago
    What would you expect any national leader to say if their territory was invaded? And what about the rest of Ukraine, was the people in Kiev asking to be liberated by the Russian army last year? Russia is currently containing the war on not-at-all-its turf to stall while they're deporting or killing unfriendlies on their illegally annexed territory. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/11/ukraine-russias-unlawful-transfer-of-civilians-a-war-crime-and-likely-a-crime-against-humanity-new-report/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/11/ukraine-russi...