4 ms·

Because, as I kinda expected when this first was launched, The replaceable modules come at a cost of not just internal size but also structure. You can't just c

Because, as I kinda expected when this first was launched, The replaceable modules come at a cost of not just internal size but also structure. You can't just cut out the corners but actually need to re-enforce everywhere you cut out. Then, where they put the card slots normally contains speakers in this category, so they needed to move those down to the battery area. Finally, every internal component needed to be packaged for repair. (Also, I'm not sure about the choice to go dual 2280s on a 13 inch) https://images.idgesg.net/images/article/2021/07/framework_5923-100896467-large.jpg?auto=webp&quality=85,70 https://images.idgesg.net/images/article/2021/07/framework_5... Note how remarkably large the speakers are, how much structure is around the battery, and how much the logic board is pushed down. We all hate the reduction in reparability in modern macbooks but look at the outcome: https://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2021/10/macbook-pro-teardown-1.jpg https://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2021/10/macbook-pro... This is a 14 inch Macbook Pro. It fills every last inch with equipment that, each on their own, are best in class. The battery is 30% bigger. The Speakers are louder and have more bass, the system is designed to handle far more wattage from the SOC. The Framework laptop is a great first attempt, but I'm not really convinced they are quite there yet. They really need to drop the Macbook Air design and go for boxy here to maximise volume. It absolutely needs a dedicated GPU option. Having a laptop a lightly technically minded person can repair easily makes little sense if it isn't targeted at their niche. Generally you start deep in the niche and move mass-market as you expand.

schmorptron 4y ago
Do you think there's a happy middle ground to be found then between the extensibility of the expansion cards and internal space for stuff like speakers and battery then. I think I'd be very happy with 2 expansion card slots and 3 hardwired USB C ports that can be upgraded with mainboard revisions to support newer USB standards.
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
> We all hate the reduction in reparability in modern macbooks but look at the outcome There are two diffetent problems with repairability - one is making it easy for a dilebtante to replace parts. The other, is making parts and schematics avaliable so that a specialist can repair it. You don't actually have to change the design. This is what Luis Rossman is talking about > Dedicated GPU Yeah I only buy laptops with GPUs. Honestly laptops outside power user/gaming niche rarely need things replaced
- agloe_dreams 4y ago
  > There are two different problems with repairability - one is making it easy for a dilebtante to replace parts. I would probably argue that this is framework's primary angle on it, which is why the cost in internal volume is so high.
m_0x 4y ago
> Having a laptop a lightly technically minded person can repair easily makes little sense if it isn't targeted at their niche. I disagree. There's value in a laptop that can be easily repaired/upgraded for non tech people. And I mean that. People that will only use their laptops for zoom, lightweight internet browsing and stuff like that. Because, they will fucking break something and better to have it easily repaired than having to go a specialized center. Keep in mind I'm not talking about people that can afford new iphone every year but people that can afford a mid-budget Android phone every two-four years. > Generally you start deep in the niche and move mass-market as you expand. Isn't that how you piss away your niche market?
- asoneth 4y ago
  > There's value in a laptop that can be easily repaired/upgraded for non tech people How does the price of a Framework today plus upgrade modules in three years compare to a cheap laptop now and a new cheap laptop in three years? Obviously the former is better for the environment, but if you don't break even on your investment in a Framework laptop by the first upgrade then it's going to be a very, very hard sell for most consumers.
- agloe_dreams 4y ago
  I totally get the upgrade angle for non-technical people...but you need to convince them that they want it...and that it is worth Framework's frankly large premium. Then you get to the fact that this machine is incredibly poorly sold if that is your market. The pre-configured options are almost insane. $1050 for a machine with 8GB ram..or $400 more to get 16GB because they paired it with CPU and Storage upgrades? Of course you can go DIY but keep in mind this is for lightly-technical users. Then a user needs to pick their port loadout. It is overload and a lot of money for anyone who isn't technical...but if you ARE technical...this thing is basically a bad ultrabook in use. You can get a like-spec (1240p, 8gb, 256) Asus Zenbook 14 OLED...for $500 dollars less! That's my gripe. I love the repair angle. The expansion cards are downright silly for most users. The money is basically nuts for prebuilt. And, ultimately they made a non-touch Surface Book 3..rather than a Macbook Pro. > Isn't that how you piss away your niche market? Well yeah. It's also how you continue to exist outside a niche. Some companies manage to do both. I would argue that the current top-end Macbook Pro is a downright niche product compared to the rest of their lineup. See also: The Mazda Miata. Niche, well loved, technical, co-existing.
SkyMarshal 4y ago
> Then, where they put the card slots normally contains speakers in this category, so they needed to move those down to the battery area. Does Framework even need embedded speakers? Why not just rely on external wired or Bluetooth speakers, or headphones, instead, and use the space for a larger battery.

schmorptron 4y ago

Do you think there's a happy middle ground to be found then between the extensibility of the expansion cards and internal space for stuff like speakers and battery then. I think I'd be very happy with 2 expansion card slots and 3 hardwired USB C ports that can be upgraded with mainboard revisions to support newer USB standards.

ClumsyPilot 4y ago

> We all hate the reduction in reparability in modern macbooks but look at the outcome There are two diffetent problems with repairability - one is making it easy for a dilebtante to replace parts. The other, is making parts and schematics avaliable so that a specialist can repair it. You don't actually have to change the design. This is what Luis Rossman is talking about > Dedicated GPU Yeah I only buy laptops with GPUs. Honestly laptops outside power user/gaming niche rarely need things replaced

agloe_dreams 4y ago
> There are two different problems with repairability - one is making it easy for a dilebtante to replace parts. I would probably argue that this is framework's primary angle on it, which is why the cost in internal volume is so high.

m_0x 4y ago

> Having a laptop a lightly technically minded person can repair easily makes little sense if it isn't targeted at their niche. I disagree. There's value in a laptop that can be easily repaired/upgraded for non tech people. And I mean that. People that will only use their laptops for zoom, lightweight internet browsing and stuff like that. Because, they will fucking break something and better to have it easily repaired than having to go a specialized center. Keep in mind I'm not talking about people that can afford new iphone every year but people that can afford a mid-budget Android phone every two-four years. > Generally you start deep in the niche and move mass-market as you expand. Isn't that how you piss away your niche market?

asoneth 4y ago
> There's value in a laptop that can be easily repaired/upgraded for non tech people How does the price of a Framework today plus upgrade modules in three years compare to a cheap laptop now and a new cheap laptop in three years? Obviously the former is better for the environment, but if you don't break even on your investment in a Framework laptop by the first upgrade then it's going to be a very, very hard sell for most consumers.
agloe_dreams 4y ago
I totally get the upgrade angle for non-technical people...but you need to convince them that they want it...and that it is worth Framework's frankly large premium. Then you get to the fact that this machine is incredibly poorly sold if that is your market. The pre-configured options are almost insane. $1050 for a machine with 8GB ram..or $400 more to get 16GB because they paired it with CPU and Storage upgrades? Of course you can go DIY but keep in mind this is for lightly-technical users. Then a user needs to pick their port loadout. It is overload and a lot of money for anyone who isn't technical...but if you ARE technical...this thing is basically a bad ultrabook in use. You can get a like-spec (1240p, 8gb, 256) Asus Zenbook 14 OLED...for $500 dollars less! That's my gripe. I love the repair angle. The expansion cards are downright silly for most users. The money is basically nuts for prebuilt. And, ultimately they made a non-touch Surface Book 3..rather than a Macbook Pro. > Isn't that how you piss away your niche market? Well yeah. It's also how you continue to exist outside a niche. Some companies manage to do both. I would argue that the current top-end Macbook Pro is a downright niche product compared to the rest of their lineup. See also: The Mazda Miata. Niche, well loved, technical, co-existing.

SkyMarshal 4y ago

> Then, where they put the card slots normally contains speakers in this category, so they needed to move those down to the battery area. Does Framework even need embedded speakers? Why not just rely on external wired or Bluetooth speakers, or headphones, instead, and use the space for a larger battery.