4 ms·

The West is done. A combination of greed, bad politics, poor education, degraded culture makes us live the last days in which the West matters.

quonn 4y ago
Agree on greed and education, disagree on everything else. At least the US still has programmers - in Europe nobody wants to program anymore - too much work. The big car companies create software centres in Munich and hire thousands on Indians on visas there, because there are no Europeans available. I have recently talked to many young people about ChatGPT and their conclusion is that technical skills are irrelevant and they should focus only on soft skills. Well - soft skills are the most basic level - it's just what makes us humans. Some day the non-european people doing the work will figure out that they can do the managing and talking and buzz wording just as good - but that we can't do their work because we have given up on learning the skills.
- jen20 4y ago
  Perhaps there are fewer Europeans available because they are doing the same thing in the US: making actual money instead of the pittance offered by employers in HCOL cities like Munich?
- mciancia 4y ago
  ...what I think you are mixing up "nobody want to program in Europe" with "nobody wants to program for peanuts in Europe"
  - quonn 4y ago
    100k or more are not peanuts in Europe. But it's true that this may be part of the problem.
    - wil421 4y ago
      I’ve seen a lot more sub €100k programmers respond with salaries on HN and Reddit than ones close to €100k. A quick google search says the average is 65k in Berlin and around 60k in the UK. London is probably higher for sure.
      - quonn 4y ago
        In Munich 90k+ seems to be common. Berlin on the other hand has lower costs of living.
        wil421 4y ago
        That would explain it, I should’ve looked at Munich. I thought Berlin would be higher.
      - zirgs 4y ago
        You can get 50-60k EUR in Eastern Europe these days if you know what you're doing. Sure, it's not a FAANG level salary, but cost of living is low here. So I would definitely not migrate to London if they offered 60k.
        DeathArrow 4y ago
        Yeah but 60k is not 100k.
        zirgs 4y ago
        You can buy an apartment for less than 100k in those places though.
    - DeathArrow 4y ago
      I am making far less than 100k.
- wil421 4y ago
  > I have recently talked to many young people about ChatGPT and their conclusion is that technical skills are irrelevant and they should focus only on soft skills. This is a hilarious take. I can reason with a junior programmer and walk through the steps to get a result. I can’t lead of team of ChatGPT bots. The only thing going for ChatGPT is it’s hubris.
  - quonn 4y ago
    It's not my take - I'm just describing what people have told me. I completely disagree with those people which is sort of my point.
nivenkos 4y ago
The US is doing fine - the Inflation Reduction Act will bring back a lot of industry and make the business owners even richer. Of course as the USA's economic dominance is threatened, it really ramps up the cannibalisation and exploitation of its puppet states in Europe, etc.

quonn 4y ago

Agree on greed and education, disagree on everything else. At least the US still has programmers - in Europe nobody wants to program anymore - too much work. The big car companies create software centres in Munich and hire thousands on Indians on visas there, because there are no Europeans available. I have recently talked to many young people about ChatGPT and their conclusion is that technical skills are irrelevant and they should focus only on soft skills. Well - soft skills are the most basic level - it's just what makes us humans. Some day the non-european people doing the work will figure out that they can do the managing and talking and buzz wording just as good - but that we can't do their work because we have given up on learning the skills.

jen20 4y ago
Perhaps there are fewer Europeans available because they are doing the same thing in the US: making actual money instead of the pittance offered by employers in HCOL cities like Munich?
mciancia 4y ago
...what I think you are mixing up "nobody want to program in Europe" with "nobody wants to program for peanuts in Europe"
- quonn 4y ago
  100k or more are not peanuts in Europe. But it's true that this may be part of the problem.
  - wil421 4y ago
    I’ve seen a lot more sub €100k programmers respond with salaries on HN and Reddit than ones close to €100k. A quick google search says the average is 65k in Berlin and around 60k in the UK. London is probably higher for sure.
    - quonn 4y ago
      In Munich 90k+ seems to be common. Berlin on the other hand has lower costs of living.
      - wil421 4y ago
        That would explain it, I should’ve looked at Munich. I thought Berlin would be higher.
    - zirgs 4y ago
      You can get 50-60k EUR in Eastern Europe these days if you know what you're doing. Sure, it's not a FAANG level salary, but cost of living is low here. So I would definitely not migrate to London if they offered 60k.
      - DeathArrow 4y ago
        Yeah but 60k is not 100k.
        zirgs 4y ago
        You can buy an apartment for less than 100k in those places though.
  - DeathArrow 4y ago
    I am making far less than 100k.
wil421 4y ago
> I have recently talked to many young people about ChatGPT and their conclusion is that technical skills are irrelevant and they should focus only on soft skills. This is a hilarious take. I can reason with a junior programmer and walk through the steps to get a result. I can’t lead of team of ChatGPT bots. The only thing going for ChatGPT is it’s hubris.
- quonn 4y ago
  It's not my take - I'm just describing what people have told me. I completely disagree with those people which is sort of my point.

nivenkos 4y ago

The US is doing fine - the Inflation Reduction Act will bring back a lot of industry and make the business owners even richer. Of course as the USA's economic dominance is threatened, it really ramps up the cannibalisation and exploitation of its puppet states in Europe, etc.