4 ms·

I think in this situation, rental cars would help. If 6 days out of 7 you can do without a car, then spending $50 or whatever it costs to hire a car for the se

I think in this situation, rental cars would help. If 6 days out of 7 you can do without a car, then spending $50 or whatever it costs to hire a car for the seventh day would make sense. It would take a long time for that to add up to $20,000 - $30,000 people spend to own a car. Not to mention services and other car sundries.

darklajid 15y ago
I agree - maybe because that's exactly what I do. Living in a crowded area near the Tel Aviv port (think shopping, clubs, restaurants and sometimes events) a car would've been a real hassle. In fact: If I'd have decided that I need a car here, this location wouldn't have made sense at all. But I think I can get by without one, most of the time. And given the traffic here I consciously decided that I really don't want to participate on a regular basis anyway. I rent a car for trips across the country if needed, use a bike for the rest. Rarely a bus/shuttle taxi/taxi. Trains are .. well .. kind of pointless for my uses so far. I'm convinced that I save money this way and do 'Something Good' (tm), both for myself and the environment.
- ido 15y ago
  As an Israeli living abroad (Vienna in my case, have been here for 7 years), the lacking mass transport in Tel Aviv (you can kinda get by without a car, but it's not easy and as you say even if you live in a central location you still need a car sometimes) is my most major reason to not even consider Tel Aviv a real option right now (neither me nor my girlfriend have driving licenses or the will to ever have a car). Even just dropping the silly no-transit-on-saturday rule would be a huge improvement (then you could actually get pretty much anywhere you need to, just not very quickly and you'd have to live in a farily central location inside Tel Aviv proper). This really puzzles me - if significantly poorer cities such as Budapest and Prague can pull off decent mass-transit, how come Tel Aviv can't? I rent a car for trips across the country if needed How do you visit people outside Tel Aviv on the weekend? Probably my most common ailment in your situation would be that I couldn't easily visit family members and friends even if they live in greater Tel Aviv on weekends, since the buses/trains don't work on Saturdays and shared taxis don't go everywhere.
  - darklajid 15y ago
    So - I have a license and love to drive. But here it is ~different~. The whole traffic 'culture' constantly makes me think that I'd cause accidents here: My Autobahn mindset doesn't translate to the driving behavior here, so I fear that _I_ will crash into someone, someday, because of 'No, he certainly won't do ... BOOM'. Agreed, the Saturday issue is annoying sometimes. You can go by train as far as I am informed (but where to? The options are limited) and the sherut + cab solution works. Bus, (sherut,) cab are ~cheap~ here. In TLV I need no car, never. For shopping it might be annoying sometimes, but that's really just my own lazyness, I think. Renting cars: I don't need one without planning ahead. If I do that, I can easily rent it in advance (ignoring the Saturday issue again). In the greater area I still try to use the bike. A car is for visits to the dead sea, to Haifa, Jerusalem (train works just as well though) etc. I don't have family here and friends are ~local~, i.e. TLV, Ramat Gan, Ramat Aviv etc. => Bike
  - llcoolv 15y ago
    This really puzzles me - if significantly poorer cities such as Budapest and Prague can pull off decent mass-transit, how come Tel Aviv can't? Can you provide some source? Since, at least according to EUROSTAT the Prague NUTS-2 Region is in EU's top 10[1] and Tel Aviv is not even in the Middle East's top 10. Also, a lot of the machinery for the Czech mass transit systems (trams, trolleybuses, metro trains, Esko (commuter) trains, buses, fare collection systems) is produced locally, thus directly contributing to the economy. Israel just doesn't have those centuries of excellent tradition in machine-engineering and construction. 1. http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_PUBLIC/1-18022010-AP/EN/1-18022010-AP-EN.PDF http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_PUBLIC/1-18022010...
    - arethuza 15y ago
      We were in Krakow recently and just about cried seeing the number of trams running through the place - in Edinburgh we're spending about a billion pounds for one tram line that goes from not-quite-the-airport to the city center.
    - ido 15y ago
      Can you provide some source? I don't have a source, the impression was based on my subjective knowledge that my Czech friends earn significantly less than my Israeli friends. I know a lot of people in both countries - 1000 euro/month is a nice middle-class salary in Prague, in Tel Aviv that's just barely making ends-meet, if at all (it's quite possibly that your rent alone will be close to that much, and not in a particularly nice apartment either).
llimllib 15y ago
> $20,000 - $30,000 people spend to own a car Yearly? That seems high. My car is paid off and I pay nothing for parking (other than whatever portion of my steep Baltimore City property taxes pays for it). Anyway, let's say I drive 8000 miles in a year, my car gets 30 mpg and gas is $4 a gallon. 8000/30=267 gallons * 4 = $1068 per year on gas. My car's paid off, but I bought it 5 years ago for $10k, so let's just amortize that evenly per year, and assume it will die at the end of the year, and say I paid $2k per year for it. My maintenance in the past year has been minimal; I think my greatest cost was replacing a headlamp. (knock on wood). Let's say $250 just to be conservative. Let's add another $250 for government taxes, fees, etc. Therefore, in the last year, my car cost me about 1068+2000+250+250 = $3568, nearly an order of magnitude less than your assessment.
- _delirium 15y ago
  I assumed his estimate was for buying a new car, not yearly. Your numbers seem approximately right for yearly, although you also have to add in insurance. I think my maintenance expenses have averaged more like $500 as well, between routine maintenance and an oil change once a year, new tires every 4-5 years, battery change every 3-5 years, and miscellaneous mishaps (had to replace my windshield once after it got hit by a rock when parked in a city).
  - llimllib 15y ago
    Good points both, my insurance is $1300/yr, and if we up the maintenance estimate we get ~$5000/yr. I've been fortunate that my car has run with nearly no repairs, and city living hasn't done much damage to it besides some moron who ran into the bumper and drove off while it was parked. (I assumed it was for buying a new car too, I just wanted to point out that the yearly cost of owning a car is much less than the number he was using.)
- jedbrown 15y ago
  You might have skipped insurance in your list, but I don't think the parent meant $20k-30k as the yearly cost (because that much is rare), but as the initial purchase price (which is common when buying new).
usaar333 15y ago
I've done the math when I considered switching to zipcar and even here you barely break even. I spend just over $200 a month on my car (amortized maintenance, depreciation, insurance, etc.) before gas, which is pretty much the same number as here. With costs the same, I just go with the option where my car is always outside. `

darklajid 15y ago

I agree - maybe because that's exactly what I do. Living in a crowded area near the Tel Aviv port (think shopping, clubs, restaurants and sometimes events) a car would've been a real hassle. In fact: If I'd have decided that I need a car here, this location wouldn't have made sense at all. But I think I can get by without one, most of the time. And given the traffic here I consciously decided that I really don't want to participate on a regular basis anyway. I rent a car for trips across the country if needed, use a bike for the rest. Rarely a bus/shuttle taxi/taxi. Trains are .. well .. kind of pointless for my uses so far. I'm convinced that I save money this way and do 'Something Good' (tm), both for myself and the environment.

ido 15y ago
As an Israeli living abroad (Vienna in my case, have been here for 7 years), the lacking mass transport in Tel Aviv (you can kinda get by without a car, but it's not easy and as you say even if you live in a central location you still need a car sometimes) is my most major reason to not even consider Tel Aviv a real option right now (neither me nor my girlfriend have driving licenses or the will to ever have a car). Even just dropping the silly no-transit-on-saturday rule would be a huge improvement (then you could actually get pretty much anywhere you need to, just not very quickly and you'd have to live in a farily central location inside Tel Aviv proper). This really puzzles me - if significantly poorer cities such as Budapest and Prague can pull off decent mass-transit, how come Tel Aviv can't? I rent a car for trips across the country if needed How do you visit people outside Tel Aviv on the weekend? Probably my most common ailment in your situation would be that I couldn't easily visit family members and friends even if they live in greater Tel Aviv on weekends, since the buses/trains don't work on Saturdays and shared taxis don't go everywhere.
- darklajid 15y ago
  So - I have a license and love to drive. But here it is ~different~. The whole traffic 'culture' constantly makes me think that I'd cause accidents here: My Autobahn mindset doesn't translate to the driving behavior here, so I fear that _I_ will crash into someone, someday, because of 'No, he certainly won't do ... BOOM'. Agreed, the Saturday issue is annoying sometimes. You can go by train as far as I am informed (but where to? The options are limited) and the sherut + cab solution works. Bus, (sherut,) cab are ~cheap~ here. In TLV I need no car, never. For shopping it might be annoying sometimes, but that's really just my own lazyness, I think. Renting cars: I don't need one without planning ahead. If I do that, I can easily rent it in advance (ignoring the Saturday issue again). In the greater area I still try to use the bike. A car is for visits to the dead sea, to Haifa, Jerusalem (train works just as well though) etc. I don't have family here and friends are ~local~, i.e. TLV, Ramat Gan, Ramat Aviv etc. => Bike
- llcoolv 15y ago
  This really puzzles me - if significantly poorer cities such as Budapest and Prague can pull off decent mass-transit, how come Tel Aviv can't? Can you provide some source? Since, at least according to EUROSTAT the Prague NUTS-2 Region is in EU's top 10[1] and Tel Aviv is not even in the Middle East's top 10. Also, a lot of the machinery for the Czech mass transit systems (trams, trolleybuses, metro trains, Esko (commuter) trains, buses, fare collection systems) is produced locally, thus directly contributing to the economy. Israel just doesn't have those centuries of excellent tradition in machine-engineering and construction. 1. http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_PUBLIC/1-18022010-AP/EN/1-18022010-AP-EN.PDF http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_PUBLIC/1-18022010...
  - arethuza 15y ago
    We were in Krakow recently and just about cried seeing the number of trams running through the place - in Edinburgh we're spending about a billion pounds for one tram line that goes from not-quite-the-airport to the city center.
  - ido 15y ago
    Can you provide some source? I don't have a source, the impression was based on my subjective knowledge that my Czech friends earn significantly less than my Israeli friends. I know a lot of people in both countries - 1000 euro/month is a nice middle-class salary in Prague, in Tel Aviv that's just barely making ends-meet, if at all (it's quite possibly that your rent alone will be close to that much, and not in a particularly nice apartment either).

llimllib 15y ago

> $20,000 - $30,000 people spend to own a car Yearly? That seems high. My car is paid off and I pay nothing for parking (other than whatever portion of my steep Baltimore City property taxes pays for it). Anyway, let's say I drive 8000 miles in a year, my car gets 30 mpg and gas is $4 a gallon. 8000/30=267 gallons * 4 = $1068 per year on gas. My car's paid off, but I bought it 5 years ago for $10k, so let's just amortize that evenly per year, and assume it will die at the end of the year, and say I paid $2k per year for it. My maintenance in the past year has been minimal; I think my greatest cost was replacing a headlamp. (knock on wood). Let's say $250 just to be conservative. Let's add another $250 for government taxes, fees, etc. Therefore, in the last year, my car cost me about 1068+2000+250+250 = $3568, nearly an order of magnitude less than your assessment.

_delirium 15y ago
I assumed his estimate was for buying a new car, not yearly. Your numbers seem approximately right for yearly, although you also have to add in insurance. I think my maintenance expenses have averaged more like $500 as well, between routine maintenance and an oil change once a year, new tires every 4-5 years, battery change every 3-5 years, and miscellaneous mishaps (had to replace my windshield once after it got hit by a rock when parked in a city).
- llimllib 15y ago
  Good points both, my insurance is $1300/yr, and if we up the maintenance estimate we get ~$5000/yr. I've been fortunate that my car has run with nearly no repairs, and city living hasn't done much damage to it besides some moron who ran into the bumper and drove off while it was parked. (I assumed it was for buying a new car too, I just wanted to point out that the yearly cost of owning a car is much less than the number he was using.)
jedbrown 15y ago
You might have skipped insurance in your list, but I don't think the parent meant $20k-30k as the yearly cost (because that much is rare), but as the initial purchase price (which is common when buying new).

usaar333 15y ago

I've done the math when I considered switching to zipcar and even here you barely break even. I spend just over $200 a month on my car (amortized maintenance, depreciation, insurance, etc.) before gas, which is pretty much the same number as here. With costs the same, I just go with the option where my car is always outside. `