7 ms·

I agree that its fraudulent. Its a mess though, right? Why would it be more fraudulent for a priest to be having a gay relationship than a straight sexual rela

by nickd2001 4y ago

I agree that its fraudulent. Its a mess though, right? Why would it be more fraudulent for a priest to be having a gay relationship than a straight sexual relationship? Because its a "double sin"? I'm really uncomfortable with that, sounds like homophobia. Find a new line of work? Well I kind of agree but who are the rest of us, who haven't promised to be celibate, to say that or judge? Had I been called to be a priest I think I'd have failed at the celibacy requirement. ;) And anyway the church hasn't always required celibacy, in fact it currently lets married C of E minister join under the ordinariate. I do agree with you these priests are being fraudulent, and possibly should indeed find another line of work but on the other hand why target specifically gay-related issues, seems hard to disentangle from homophobia, and the motivation of those who outed them does not seem kind or loving or following Catholic values

decremental 4y ago
I don't think this will come as a surprise but God doesn't endorse homosexuality. Quite the opposite. God loves everyone, including gay people. He does not love sin. It is perfectly in line with Catholic values to weed out sin in all of its forms.
- nickd2001 4y ago
  (It wasn't me that downvoted you BTW). It seems to me, God is interested about whether people are being kind and loving to each other, working for peace , avoiding wars, making sure everyone is fed, housed, clothed, educated, respected etc. This includes ensuring people aren't abused or exploited by others, which unfortunately has happened within the church and has a long way to go to be fixed. When it comes to what takes place sexually between consenting adults, absolutely there are morals in that area, but it seems to me it is humans who have become obsessed with that area of morality at the expense of other areas of life. When there are millions upon millions of people that have become refugees as result of wars, famines, floods etc, surely don't you think God is rather more bothered by that? And, doesn't that mean, humans should be most bothered by that. And Catholics should be working to fix that, rather than wasting time on trivialities? I do not condone priests for pretending to be celibate while seeking gay sex, also if they joined the priesthood with the precise intention of finding sex (gay or for that matter straight although the latter is an unlikely reason) rather than serving others, then that's very bad. However... really... in the big scheme of things.. shouldn't we be first and foremost caring about helping the marginalised and vulnerable. Perhaps the wealthy people that outed those gay priests, might have done better helping refugees instead? I'd imagine that's what God would've preferred.
  - Eisenstein 4y ago
    Why is it taken for granted that God is moral and good? It is more likely he is an asshole. Read the Old Testament.
    - nickd2001 4y ago
      Its a fair question :) My understanding is that the vengeful angry God described in parts of the Old Testament reflects the only partial understanding of God by humans at the time that was written. When bad things happened like plagues etc, people assumed that was God punishing people. Later, Jesus spent much time clarifying this and trying to put things straight in people's minds, that in fact God is not vengeful at all but loving and merciful. And by allowing himself to be crucified, Jesus demonstrated that by a powerful action. It is sometimes said that "The Bible is a dangerous book". ;). If you go straight to the Old Testament you may indeed get a terrible impression of God and be turned off christianity for life. Also, some churches build their whole faith on this and go around judging and berating people. One good thing about the Catholic church is it has traditions based on 2000 yrs of theologians studying the bible and trying to make sense of it, so , theoretically , a better understanding should be able to be found by looking at some Catholic teaching than by going straight to the bible. On the other hand, humans are fallible, so there are certainly plenty of Catholics who misunderstand the what the church believe, there is stuff that is still debated within the church or even incoherent still, there are people in the church for the wrong reasons, e:g either using it as a gay dating agency having made a solemn promise to be celibate, or trying to use it to target gays that they hate. (to return to the original subject of this debate :) ) Cos people can sometimes be... well, assholes is a strong word... perhaps, not as kind as they should be would be a better way of putting it.
      - Eisenstein 4y ago
        Does that mean we nullify the Ten Commandments, or are those still 'the word of God'? Have you read them and thought about them? They are basically three major things: 1. Pay attention to God, a lot, and don't make him jealous 2. Uphold patriarchy 3. Don't murder/steal/lie* None of those things are 'loving', and the only true absolutes (the ones God doesn't revoke when he gets a bit pissed and commands followers to smite whole people's for offending him somehow) are the 'worship God' and 'uphold patriarchy' parts. Jesus was a Great PR guy, but for everything he did to make the big guy look good, he still ended up getting tortured to death for lulz and never got Daddy's love (why hast thou forsaken me?). Honestly a true reading of God is a sadistic narcissist and it makes the most sense. If an omnipotent being actually cared about us he wouldn't give a bunch of conflicting information all the time and watch us hurt each other and let babies die of AIDS...and he damn sure wouldn't have tortured his own kid to death. * Unless God tells you to...

decremental 4y ago

I don't think this will come as a surprise but God doesn't endorse homosexuality. Quite the opposite. God loves everyone, including gay people. He does not love sin. It is perfectly in line with Catholic values to weed out sin in all of its forms.

nickd2001 4y ago
(It wasn't me that downvoted you BTW). It seems to me, God is interested about whether people are being kind and loving to each other, working for peace , avoiding wars, making sure everyone is fed, housed, clothed, educated, respected etc. This includes ensuring people aren't abused or exploited by others, which unfortunately has happened within the church and has a long way to go to be fixed. When it comes to what takes place sexually between consenting adults, absolutely there are morals in that area, but it seems to me it is humans who have become obsessed with that area of morality at the expense of other areas of life. When there are millions upon millions of people that have become refugees as result of wars, famines, floods etc, surely don't you think God is rather more bothered by that? And, doesn't that mean, humans should be most bothered by that. And Catholics should be working to fix that, rather than wasting time on trivialities? I do not condone priests for pretending to be celibate while seeking gay sex, also if they joined the priesthood with the precise intention of finding sex (gay or for that matter straight although the latter is an unlikely reason) rather than serving others, then that's very bad. However... really... in the big scheme of things.. shouldn't we be first and foremost caring about helping the marginalised and vulnerable. Perhaps the wealthy people that outed those gay priests, might have done better helping refugees instead? I'd imagine that's what God would've preferred.
- Eisenstein 4y ago
  Why is it taken for granted that God is moral and good? It is more likely he is an asshole. Read the Old Testament.
  - nickd2001 4y ago
    Its a fair question :) My understanding is that the vengeful angry God described in parts of the Old Testament reflects the only partial understanding of God by humans at the time that was written. When bad things happened like plagues etc, people assumed that was God punishing people. Later, Jesus spent much time clarifying this and trying to put things straight in people's minds, that in fact God is not vengeful at all but loving and merciful. And by allowing himself to be crucified, Jesus demonstrated that by a powerful action. It is sometimes said that "The Bible is a dangerous book". ;). If you go straight to the Old Testament you may indeed get a terrible impression of God and be turned off christianity for life. Also, some churches build their whole faith on this and go around judging and berating people. One good thing about the Catholic church is it has traditions based on 2000 yrs of theologians studying the bible and trying to make sense of it, so , theoretically , a better understanding should be able to be found by looking at some Catholic teaching than by going straight to the bible. On the other hand, humans are fallible, so there are certainly plenty of Catholics who misunderstand the what the church believe, there is stuff that is still debated within the church or even incoherent still, there are people in the church for the wrong reasons, e:g either using it as a gay dating agency having made a solemn promise to be celibate, or trying to use it to target gays that they hate. (to return to the original subject of this debate :) ) Cos people can sometimes be... well, assholes is a strong word... perhaps, not as kind as they should be would be a better way of putting it.
    - Eisenstein 4y ago
      Does that mean we nullify the Ten Commandments, or are those still 'the word of God'? Have you read them and thought about them? They are basically three major things: 1. Pay attention to God, a lot, and don't make him jealous 2. Uphold patriarchy 3. Don't murder/steal/lie* None of those things are 'loving', and the only true absolutes (the ones God doesn't revoke when he gets a bit pissed and commands followers to smite whole people's for offending him somehow) are the 'worship God' and 'uphold patriarchy' parts. Jesus was a Great PR guy, but for everything he did to make the big guy look good, he still ended up getting tortured to death for lulz and never got Daddy's love (why hast thou forsaken me?). Honestly a true reading of God is a sadistic narcissist and it makes the most sense. If an omnipotent being actually cared about us he wouldn't give a bunch of conflicting information all the time and watch us hurt each other and let babies die of AIDS...and he damn sure wouldn't have tortured his own kid to death. * Unless God tells you to...