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I respect your work, but you have to realize that what many companies were doing with their money was the financial equivalent of developing by SSHing into prod

I respect your work, but you have to realize that what many companies were doing with their money was the financial equivalent of developing by SSHing into prod and editing a 50kloc index.php. And when they got into trouble, they did not stop to asses their situation (possible 5-10% haircut, nbd), but went into full blown existential meltdowns. One minute crying and begging, next minute threatening. In fact, after reading too many Twitter posts of founders complaining, they don't even seem remotely aware that they can even do things differently and properly. And let's not even get into the outrageous behavior of tech leaders like Sacks et all. This episode makes me embarrassed to be part of this industry.

moshegramovsky 4y ago
> This episode makes me embarrassed to be part of this industry. I'm feeling that more and more these days. I don't want to wake up one day and think "what have I done?".
- cwsx 4y ago
  Disliking the industry does not mean you can't find a space where you're contributing to something you believe in. In my opinion, the industry has been downhill since FB blew up and started abusing its power, though I wasn't around for the dotcom/Microsoft era so that's just my experience. I absolutely loathe the vast majority of large tech companies, and that's only gotten worse (especially in the last 5 years). I outright refuse to work for companies (that I percieve) that are primarily involved in data collection/privacy violations, as I'm sure a lot of developers would refuse to work on weapons systems. That said, I'm growing more and more jaded, and wondering how best to focus my efforts. This has lead me to take jobs at smaller and smaller companies, heavily impacting my income, but at least I'm not actively working on projects I despise. I've also found myself spending a lot more time on personal or contributing to open source projects that push back on said projects I despise (largely privacy related). Not to say everyone is in a position to do that, but I do think we should be more conscious of what we're helping to build. Focus your efforts on projects you believe in, and be willing to push back on those you do not. This is not going to solve anything, but as the crowd grows larger we'll hopefully create enough noise for others to take note. (this is all very subjective, take my comment with a grain of salt)
  - yunwal 4y ago
    It’s really hard to participate in a system that’s so interconnected without contributing to the bad parts. Chances are, you’re using a cloud provider that belongs to one of the big cos, etc etc. I work for a company whose product/mission I believe is positive, but with the externalities I’m beginning to doubt whether there’s really any place to contribute positively in for-profit tech.
  - sanderjd 4y ago
    For what it's worth, I'm thinking about getting certified as an electrician instead.
    - duggable 4y ago
      Just had this discussion with my wife yesterday. Plumber sounds fine as well.
  - moshegramovsky 4y ago
    Thank you for saying this. It's the perfect encapsulation of how I feel. For most of my career (I'm 48 now), I have loved my work. But the last 10 years have been really revealing in a bad way. I don't want to build information weapons, and that's how I'm starting to feel all the time.
    - cwsx 4y ago
      It's unfortunate, and I only see it getting worse, though I'm hoping there's enough of us to influence the velocity. The sentiment seems to be growing, so I'm trying to be optimistic, but it's going to be difficult when up against the resources of "big tech" (for lack of a better term). For me it ultimately boils down to my personal morals . I am not comfortable supporting these types of companies, even if my contribution makes minimal difference (on either side). I refuse to contribute because I wouldn't be comfortable with _myself_. I hope this decision will be beneficial to more than just myself, but if it isn't I'll at least be happy knowing I did what I could to support what I believe in. (side note, I didn't mean this to be so subjectively idealistic, but even if you completely disagree with my opinion on tech, I think the introspection and focus of attention would benefit all)
bcantrill 4y ago
There are some absolute turkeys out there, no question -- but there were/are also a lot of people who have taken pay cuts and betting it all on themselves to try to bring something innovative and important into the world. And when you say "they got into trouble", what you mean is: the bank in which they (we) are depositors was subjected to a bank run (something that no bank can survive). And yes, I believed and believe that depositors should be made whole: we -- as a group -- were not acting with avarice or recklessness. I am proud of my government and our hard-working regulators who were able to ignore the shrill caricature and see the very real lives that would been adversely affected by deposit loss.
- mustache_kimono 4y ago
  > [W]e -- as a group -- were not acting with avarice or recklessness. (First off, unashamed Oxide/Bryan Cantrill fan!) Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but some of the depositors obviously were reckless. Circle had $3.3 billion at a single bank. Roku had $487 million. If you're trying to say that you/Oxide did not act recklessly, maybe not, but some of the depositors obviously did. Ask yourself, if I was your accountant/CFO/CRO and I approved keeping vast uninsured amounts in a community bank, and that bank went under (as some have), and FDIC chose to uphold the letter of the law (as sometimes it has -- I'm not miles from were one of the most important oil and gas bank failures occurred), ask yourself -- would your board allow me to keep my job? I think not. This bailout, with a few day's hindsight, is probably an okay policy, but this industry's failure to understand why people feel this way, and to shade the truth around something depositors are not supposed to be doing, is simply terrible politics! (Goes to "Why do people hate us?! We're not the tech bros...") How would I get this industry on the road to being likable again? Be humble -- say we (as an industry, as a company) made a mistake, thank the feds and the people of the US for helping your industry get back on its feet, and you personally, out, and the put your head down and get back to work. Don't you dare imply people shouldn't be resentful when you've been given a special break/bailout. Be thankful, no one was entitled to this bailout.
  - bcantrill 4y ago
    It's not a bailout, it's a backstop -- it's making depositors whole. There is no doubt in our mind that there would have been contagion from anything less, but even if you assume the absolute bleakest scenarios, we would have been returned 80 cents on the dollar of our deposits -- and we likely would have made up the gap in the debt that we owed the bank. (We'll go into this in a bit more detail in our Oxide and Friends on Friday.[0]) In terms of "this industry", do you mean venture-backed startups? I'm not sure what mistake you're looking for people to acknowledge; taking on venture debt? Agreeing to a (non-negotiable) covenant that required us to bank with the provider of that debt? I think it's too reductive to think of this as one mistake, but if you must: the mistake wasn't made by depositors, it was made by Congress when they rolled back key provisions of Dodd-Frank.[1] (Part of Trump's "doing a number" on Dodd-Frank.) Without that SVB would have needed to be stress tested much more than they were -- and depositors would not have been exposed at all. [0] https://twitter.com/oxidecomputer/status/1636124354491858947 https://twitter.com/oxidecomputer/status/1636124354491858947 [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/22/business/congress-passes-dodd-frank-rollback-for-smaller-banks.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/22/business/congress-passes-...

moshegramovsky 4y ago

> This episode makes me embarrassed to be part of this industry. I'm feeling that more and more these days. I don't want to wake up one day and think "what have I done?".

cwsx 4y ago
Disliking the industry does not mean you can't find a space where you're contributing to something you believe in. In my opinion, the industry has been downhill since FB blew up and started abusing its power, though I wasn't around for the dotcom/Microsoft era so that's just my experience. I absolutely loathe the vast majority of large tech companies, and that's only gotten worse (especially in the last 5 years). I outright refuse to work for companies (that I percieve) that are primarily involved in data collection/privacy violations, as I'm sure a lot of developers would refuse to work on weapons systems. That said, I'm growing more and more jaded, and wondering how best to focus my efforts. This has lead me to take jobs at smaller and smaller companies, heavily impacting my income, but at least I'm not actively working on projects I despise. I've also found myself spending a lot more time on personal or contributing to open source projects that push back on said projects I despise (largely privacy related). Not to say everyone is in a position to do that, but I do think we should be more conscious of what we're helping to build. Focus your efforts on projects you believe in, and be willing to push back on those you do not. This is not going to solve anything, but as the crowd grows larger we'll hopefully create enough noise for others to take note. (this is all very subjective, take my comment with a grain of salt)
- yunwal 4y ago
  It’s really hard to participate in a system that’s so interconnected without contributing to the bad parts. Chances are, you’re using a cloud provider that belongs to one of the big cos, etc etc. I work for a company whose product/mission I believe is positive, but with the externalities I’m beginning to doubt whether there’s really any place to contribute positively in for-profit tech.
- sanderjd 4y ago
  For what it's worth, I'm thinking about getting certified as an electrician instead.
  - duggable 4y ago
    Just had this discussion with my wife yesterday. Plumber sounds fine as well.
- moshegramovsky 4y ago
  Thank you for saying this. It's the perfect encapsulation of how I feel. For most of my career (I'm 48 now), I have loved my work. But the last 10 years have been really revealing in a bad way. I don't want to build information weapons, and that's how I'm starting to feel all the time.
  - cwsx 4y ago
    It's unfortunate, and I only see it getting worse, though I'm hoping there's enough of us to influence the velocity. The sentiment seems to be growing, so I'm trying to be optimistic, but it's going to be difficult when up against the resources of "big tech" (for lack of a better term). For me it ultimately boils down to my personal morals . I am not comfortable supporting these types of companies, even if my contribution makes minimal difference (on either side). I refuse to contribute because I wouldn't be comfortable with _myself_. I hope this decision will be beneficial to more than just myself, but if it isn't I'll at least be happy knowing I did what I could to support what I believe in. (side note, I didn't mean this to be so subjectively idealistic, but even if you completely disagree with my opinion on tech, I think the introspection and focus of attention would benefit all)

bcantrill 4y ago

There are some absolute turkeys out there, no question -- but there were/are also a lot of people who have taken pay cuts and betting it all on themselves to try to bring something innovative and important into the world. And when you say "they got into trouble", what you mean is: the bank in which they (we) are depositors was subjected to a bank run (something that no bank can survive). And yes, I believed and believe that depositors should be made whole: we -- as a group -- were not acting with avarice or recklessness. I am proud of my government and our hard-working regulators who were able to ignore the shrill caricature and see the very real lives that would been adversely affected by deposit loss.

mustache_kimono 4y ago
> [W]e -- as a group -- were not acting with avarice or recklessness. (First off, unashamed Oxide/Bryan Cantrill fan!) Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but some of the depositors obviously were reckless. Circle had $3.3 billion at a single bank. Roku had $487 million. If you're trying to say that you/Oxide did not act recklessly, maybe not, but some of the depositors obviously did. Ask yourself, if I was your accountant/CFO/CRO and I approved keeping vast uninsured amounts in a community bank, and that bank went under (as some have), and FDIC chose to uphold the letter of the law (as sometimes it has -- I'm not miles from were one of the most important oil and gas bank failures occurred), ask yourself -- would your board allow me to keep my job? I think not. This bailout, with a few day's hindsight, is probably an okay policy, but this industry's failure to understand why people feel this way, and to shade the truth around something depositors are not supposed to be doing, is simply terrible politics! (Goes to "Why do people hate us?! We're not the tech bros...") How would I get this industry on the road to being likable again? Be humble -- say we (as an industry, as a company) made a mistake, thank the feds and the people of the US for helping your industry get back on its feet, and you personally, out, and the put your head down and get back to work. Don't you dare imply people shouldn't be resentful when you've been given a special break/bailout. Be thankful, no one was entitled to this bailout.
- bcantrill 4y ago
  It's not a bailout, it's a backstop -- it's making depositors whole. There is no doubt in our mind that there would have been contagion from anything less, but even if you assume the absolute bleakest scenarios, we would have been returned 80 cents on the dollar of our deposits -- and we likely would have made up the gap in the debt that we owed the bank. (We'll go into this in a bit more detail in our Oxide and Friends on Friday.[0]) In terms of "this industry", do you mean venture-backed startups? I'm not sure what mistake you're looking for people to acknowledge; taking on venture debt? Agreeing to a (non-negotiable) covenant that required us to bank with the provider of that debt? I think it's too reductive to think of this as one mistake, but if you must: the mistake wasn't made by depositors, it was made by Congress when they rolled back key provisions of Dodd-Frank.[1] (Part of Trump's "doing a number" on Dodd-Frank.) Without that SVB would have needed to be stress tested much more than they were -- and depositors would not have been exposed at all. [0] https://twitter.com/oxidecomputer/status/1636124354491858947 https://twitter.com/oxidecomputer/status/1636124354491858947 [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/22/business/congress-passes-dodd-frank-rollback-for-smaller-banks.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/22/business/congress-passes-...