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> If it doesn't encompass anything you believe in but includes your mortal enemies it's not much good. > No, they don't. I don't know anyone "on the left" who

by verall 4y ago

> If it doesn't encompass anything you believe in but includes your mortal enemies it's not much good. > No, they don't. I don't know anyone "on the left" who would happily use it knowing the full scope of what others using it identified as - and validly under your definition. Surely they aren't communicating anything meaningful. You're entitled to your own opinion dude, but political ideologies will spend all day arguing between submovements what does and doesn't qualify, and yet it's still possible to get an outline and then make predictions and discourse from there. Leftist or Conservative, you can hear arguing between tankies and anarchists, between "fiscal conservatives" and fundamentalists, mostly at the fringes, because the fringes disagree with the most. I think what you're trying to say is that the modern left and right are defined by their opposition to eachother ("culture war") and not their value and policy positions. But they do have opposing value and policy opinions, and it's not very hard to write a list. And then you can give names to these opposing groups of values and policy opinions. And you can talk about them and it's not meaningless because there are obvious real-world associations between the values in each group. "The left of the 1700s French legislature" no longer accurately describes any modern political association so that's probably not a useful lens.

LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
> you can hear arguing between tankies and anarchists Those people are the legitimate users of the term 'Leftist'. As I was saying, very few normal people would be willing to use a term that lumps them with strident communists who yearn for the good days of the USSR. It's one thing that some other members of the tribe are commies, but "The Left" was literally coined and adopted by them. (Well, socialists, but no difference.) The Left fully adopted the post modernist rhetoric of the French philosophers in the 60s and 70s, including actual literal pedophiles trying to remove age of consent laws in order to "queer children before they are stifled by the patriarchy". Again, not something normal people would support if they knew. The only way this functions is by being so tribal that nobody looks at who else is in the group because they're so busy screaming at everyone outside the group. As proof that it's an identity and not a useful descriptor - your leftist status can be stripped from you and you will be identified as "far right" if you disagree with certain tribal truths. "The left" is a label people adopt, "the right" is how they label everyone they disagree with. It's a very religious thing, to view all opposition as part of a united collective that wants to destroy you. > Leftist or Conservative Conservative what though? That's almost as empty as leftist. As in careful planning, or as in pushing your religion? You have to add 'Fiscal' to conservative before it begins to represent an actual viewpoint instead of a tribal marker. > it's not meaningless because there are obvious real-world associations between the values in each group. But vastly less meaning than any actual descriptive. Terms like fiscal conservative, socially liberal, democratic fundamentalist, etc, at least mention the issues a person could believe. You're free to call yourself whatever you will, but it's undeniable that left/right, conservative, progressive, etc, are so broad that they're identities instead of platforms.
- verall 4y ago
  > You have to add 'Fiscal' to conservative before it begins to represent an actual viewpoint instead of a tribal marker. > You're free to call yourself whatever you will, but it's undeniable that left/right, conservative, progressive, etc, are so broad that they're identities instead of platforms I think we _almost_ agree here, except that they are both identities and platforms. > "The left" is a label people adopt, "the right" is how they label everyone they disagree with. Do you feel this is unique to "The left"? > including actual literal pedophiles trying to remove age of consent laws in order to "queer children before they are stifled by the patriarchy" You've gone off the rails my dude, and I have no reason to believe you are communicating with a modicum of good faith anymore. Keep investigating, just remember, they're watching you, just waiting for you to make a small misstep. They want to take away your freedom. They want to turn your children gay. They track your phone location. Stay vigilant. They are always watching.
  - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
    > Do you feel this is unique to "The left"? No, the right is defined by the left, but woke is defined by the people who oppose it, etc. It's one of many. Conservative and liberal are a circle jerk where each is an identity and a slur to threaten dissidents with. (Despite Liberal, at least, having deeper roots than are currently meant by those who use it, it's now meaningless in most places.) The left is perhaps a bit worse than some identities for being communist, and being used to explaining millions of deaths in terms of progress... Left/right bothers me even more than liberal/conservative though because it's a reductive lens that people try to push onto everyone around despite it having little to no historical impact on most of them. > You've gone off the rails my dude, and I have no reason to believe you are communicating with a modicum of good faith anymore. It's a mere search away but that's just it. I could guarantee that you weren't going to go look because you don't want it to be true. It's a giant umbrella of things nobody is really happy with so nobody looks carefully. Pedophile leanings of left: https://aeon.co/essays/how-the-french-bohemian-elite-celebrated-predatory-behaviour https://aeon.co/essays/how-the-french-bohemian-elite-celebra... Actual government policy impact: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/07/26/the-german-experiment-that-placed-foster-children-with-pedophiles https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/07/26/the-german-exp... I'm not really talking about actual leftists who embrace their ideology but shrill ideologues with identities and how the term is incorrectly used by many, even for themselves. And it isn't that this specific philosophy is bad, though it seems so, but that it's more officially a leftist platform than a lot of what people would think is. That most supposed leftists wouldn't support this, if asked away from their peers, is the point. > I think we _almost_ agree here, except that they are both identities and platforms. Sure, then I'm just saying that leftist, conservative, etc, are all the way at the 'almost entirely an identity with almost no connection to policy' and 'fiscal conservative' is perhaps roughly in the middle, and some sort of hypothetical amazing group may exist which is vastly more focused on policy than identity. > Keep investigating, just remember, they're watching you, just waiting for you to make a small misstep. They want to take away your freedom. They want to turn your children gay. They track your phone location. Stay vigilant. They are always watching. That's pretty funny considering you're the one talking about good faith. And yes, hello. They do track our phones. Congratulations on conflating a huge issue of national security with your identity politics.

by verall 4y ago

LawTalkingGuy 4y ago

> you can hear arguing between tankies and anarchists Those people are the legitimate users of the term 'Leftist'. As I was saying, very few normal people would be willing to use a term that lumps them with strident communists who yearn for the good days of the USSR. It's one thing that some other members of the tribe are commies, but "The Left" was literally coined and adopted by them. (Well, socialists, but no difference.) The Left fully adopted the post modernist rhetoric of the French philosophers in the 60s and 70s, including actual literal pedophiles trying to remove age of consent laws in order to "queer children before they are stifled by the patriarchy". Again, not something normal people would support if they knew. The only way this functions is by being so tribal that nobody looks at who else is in the group because they're so busy screaming at everyone outside the group. As proof that it's an identity and not a useful descriptor - your leftist status can be stripped from you and you will be identified as "far right" if you disagree with certain tribal truths. "The left" is a label people adopt, "the right" is how they label everyone they disagree with. It's a very religious thing, to view all opposition as part of a united collective that wants to destroy you. > Leftist or Conservative Conservative what though? That's almost as empty as leftist. As in careful planning, or as in pushing your religion? You have to add 'Fiscal' to conservative before it begins to represent an actual viewpoint instead of a tribal marker. > it's not meaningless because there are obvious real-world associations between the values in each group. But vastly less meaning than any actual descriptive. Terms like fiscal conservative, socially liberal, democratic fundamentalist, etc, at least mention the issues a person could believe. You're free to call yourself whatever you will, but it's undeniable that left/right, conservative, progressive, etc, are so broad that they're identities instead of platforms.

verall 4y ago
> You have to add 'Fiscal' to conservative before it begins to represent an actual viewpoint instead of a tribal marker. > You're free to call yourself whatever you will, but it's undeniable that left/right, conservative, progressive, etc, are so broad that they're identities instead of platforms I think we _almost_ agree here, except that they are both identities and platforms. > "The left" is a label people adopt, "the right" is how they label everyone they disagree with. Do you feel this is unique to "The left"? > including actual literal pedophiles trying to remove age of consent laws in order to "queer children before they are stifled by the patriarchy" You've gone off the rails my dude, and I have no reason to believe you are communicating with a modicum of good faith anymore. Keep investigating, just remember, they're watching you, just waiting for you to make a small misstep. They want to take away your freedom. They want to turn your children gay. They track your phone location. Stay vigilant. They are always watching.
- LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
  > Do you feel this is unique to "The left"? No, the right is defined by the left, but woke is defined by the people who oppose it, etc. It's one of many. Conservative and liberal are a circle jerk where each is an identity and a slur to threaten dissidents with. (Despite Liberal, at least, having deeper roots than are currently meant by those who use it, it's now meaningless in most places.) The left is perhaps a bit worse than some identities for being communist, and being used to explaining millions of deaths in terms of progress... Left/right bothers me even more than liberal/conservative though because it's a reductive lens that people try to push onto everyone around despite it having little to no historical impact on most of them. > You've gone off the rails my dude, and I have no reason to believe you are communicating with a modicum of good faith anymore. It's a mere search away but that's just it. I could guarantee that you weren't going to go look because you don't want it to be true. It's a giant umbrella of things nobody is really happy with so nobody looks carefully. Pedophile leanings of left: https://aeon.co/essays/how-the-french-bohemian-elite-celebrated-predatory-behaviour https://aeon.co/essays/how-the-french-bohemian-elite-celebra... Actual government policy impact: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/07/26/the-german-experiment-that-placed-foster-children-with-pedophiles https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/07/26/the-german-exp... I'm not really talking about actual leftists who embrace their ideology but shrill ideologues with identities and how the term is incorrectly used by many, even for themselves. And it isn't that this specific philosophy is bad, though it seems so, but that it's more officially a leftist platform than a lot of what people would think is. That most supposed leftists wouldn't support this, if asked away from their peers, is the point. > I think we _almost_ agree here, except that they are both identities and platforms. Sure, then I'm just saying that leftist, conservative, etc, are all the way at the 'almost entirely an identity with almost no connection to policy' and 'fiscal conservative' is perhaps roughly in the middle, and some sort of hypothetical amazing group may exist which is vastly more focused on policy than identity. > Keep investigating, just remember, they're watching you, just waiting for you to make a small misstep. They want to take away your freedom. They want to turn your children gay. They track your phone location. Stay vigilant. They are always watching. That's pretty funny considering you're the one talking about good faith. And yes, hello. They do track our phones. Congratulations on conflating a huge issue of national security with your identity politics.