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Yeah I agree that SpaceX's concern is unlikely over potential attacks on their satellites. Not only is SpaceX able to put them up faster than Russia could shoot

Yeah I agree that SpaceX's concern is unlikely over potential attacks on their satellites. Not only is SpaceX able to put them up faster than Russia could shoot them down, attacking a Starlink satellite would be an act of war against the US regardless. I think SpaceX's concern is more related to domestic liability. The US's policy has been that they will not provide offensive aid for attacking into Russia. They've been very careful about the range of the systems they send for that reason. Unrestricted Starlink is not subject to those range limits. So, if the attacks which went deep into Russian territory involved Starlink mounted to drones, it would essentially be in violation of the US's own stated policy about military aid to Ukraine. Thus far this hasn't caused any trouble, but if something were to happen (eg an escalation), SpaceX might get thrown under the bus by the US government since they aren't contracted by the DoD to provide such service.

wazer5 4y ago
Low earth orbit is easy to hit with anti-satellite missiles, can even use ASM-135 which is a interceptor fired from a fighter jet. GPS altitudes and up are a different story.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  There's over 3,500 Starlink satellites. That likely dramatically exceeds the number of anti-satellite missiles in the entire world, let alone Russia's.
  - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
    One hit will create thousands of fragments. How many consecutive hits would be necessary to create severe enough Kessler event to destroy most of the Stralink satellites? Dozens?
    - XorNot 4y ago
      As everyone knows, the best possible way to deal with an aggressor is just straight appeasement. The risks are so large that appeasement is the only answer. If only we had historically tried appeasing belligerent foreign powers, think what wars would have been avoided... /sarcasm
      - wazer5 4y ago
        Replace "an agressor" with "the USA" and that pretty much sums up history.
        XorNot 4y ago
        LOL.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II
        wazer5 4y ago
        Most of us alive are thinking of the last 75 years.
        XorNot 4y ago
        Ironically this only further proves the point: US expansionist foreign policy would not have been checked by giving the US what it wanted. There was no version of Iraq complying with the UN which was going to prevent the neo-conservatives from getting their regime change invasion in 2003. The only preventative measures which would've worked would be diplomatic and economic counter-pressure from the UN and more specifically Europe and other NATO allies, or substantial military build up capable of seriously endangering US conventional forces. Ukraine would be in a much different military position today if it were a pariah state, as opposed to a nation declaring a strong intent to join both the EU and NATO. Turns out diplomacy, allies and soft-power are actually kind of useful things when you're not the dominant military hegemon.
      - panick21_ 4y ago
        Yes. The lesson from history is that no appeasement should ever be done. Any war, no matter how small or over how little a thing, MUST ALWAYS BE TOTAL. No war should ever end until one nation enacts genocide on another. Great plan.
    - wongarsu 4y ago
      Blowing up dozens of satellites would start a chain reaction that if left unchecked will eventually bring down all of them. But I doubt it would happen over a timeframe that's useful for this war. We arguably are already in a Kessler syndrome situation where fragments are created faster than they deorbit, but like any exponential process it starts out incredibly slow. Space is big. The average breakup seems to create about 300 fragments [1], so if Russia blows up 100 Starlink satellites that's 30,000 bullets that have to randomly hit another 3500 objects spread over an area roughly the area of the surface of the earth. Except that it's worse because space is 3-dimensional and most bullets will spend little time at that altitude, and eventually deorbit. Over a decade it will do a lot of damage, and at some point things will escalate to a point where it's hard to handle. But Russia needs results within weeks or at most months. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_space_debris_producing_events https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_space_debris_producing...
      - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
        > Space is big. Satellites are usually in orbit, not randomly in a space, so your target is to make a mess from that given orbit, not to try to mess up whole space.
      - panick21_ 4y ago
        No it wouldn't bring down all of them. They are not all on the same level and they can raise and lower their level. Debris analysis would be done and the fleet would be commanded to move strategically. Causing a chain reaction is significantly more difficult then people think.
XorNot 4y ago
SpaceX wasn't worried about any of these issues until, mysteriously, "SpaceX" suddenly was coincidental to Elon Musk having his Twitter breakdown when he decided he personally was going to negotiate peace for Ukraine[1] and was promptly rebuffed by the Ukrainian foreign minister. Then, totally coincidentally[2] suddenly "SpaceX" had very big corporate concerns about how Starlink was used and also wanted more money from the DoD at a higher commercial rate[3] and... You know, just a whole pile of totally normal coincidences... [1] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1576969255031296000 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1576969255031296000 [2] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1579094238998171648 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1579094238998171648 [3] https://edition.cnn.com/2022/10/13/politics/elon-musk-spacex-starlink-ukraine/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/10/13/politics/elon-musk-spacex...
- wazer5 4y ago
  Biden administration decided to halt plans to weaponize space started under Trump. This mothballing decision was made in early 2022 and led to said reactions by Elon.
- SyzygistSix 4y ago
  >SpaceX wasn't worried about any of these issues until... If they weren't worried about these issues, why are they very explicitly spelled out in the Starlink terms of service? The issue came up because Ukraine violated the terms of service by using them as command/control of an explosive drone boat system. You're just making things up.
ashwagary 4y ago
>SpaceX is able to put them up faster than Russia could shoot them down This doesnt seem correct to me. Building, launching, and positioning replacement satellites to fill gaps in service seems like it would take much more effort and cost than a takedown. Can you further expand on why you think your claim is accurate?
- dotnet00 4y ago
  Russia doesn't have 3500 ASAT missiles and can't build (and launch) them at a rate of ~50 per week (it's estimated that they produce ~50 cruise missiles per month). Admittedly they don't have to shoot down 3500 sats, probably only the sats in the group servicing Ukraine, but that's still a couple hundred sats and thus, likely more than the Russian ASAT stockpile.
  - yencabulator 4y ago
    The only two ways I can see to make ASAT logistics work against large constellations like Starlink is if they figure out laser-based ASAT or an in-orbit attack mechanism that shoots multiple cheap missiles/bullets (avoiding expensive separate launch per target). Neither sounds impossible, though.
    - dotnet00 4y ago
      Yeah it's difficult to envision a truly cost effective ASAT measure, "shooting" bullets is deceptive in that it'd still require carrying the large amount of fuel needed to effectively change orbit (especially for changing inclination) and would be a bit too messy in terms of spread of the resulting debris. Another interesting and clean approach might be jamming the satellites from orbit. You can't go after all the satellites, but since you can predict which ones will be over when you're doing something important, you can launch vehicles to approach specifically those and jam them at close range.

wazer5 4y ago

Low earth orbit is easy to hit with anti-satellite missiles, can even use ASM-135 which is a interceptor fired from a fighter jet. GPS altitudes and up are a different story.

ceejayoz 4y ago
There's over 3,500 Starlink satellites. That likely dramatically exceeds the number of anti-satellite missiles in the entire world, let alone Russia's.
- TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
  One hit will create thousands of fragments. How many consecutive hits would be necessary to create severe enough Kessler event to destroy most of the Stralink satellites? Dozens?
  - XorNot 4y ago
    As everyone knows, the best possible way to deal with an aggressor is just straight appeasement. The risks are so large that appeasement is the only answer. If only we had historically tried appeasing belligerent foreign powers, think what wars would have been avoided... /sarcasm
    - wazer5 4y ago
      Replace "an agressor" with "the USA" and that pretty much sums up history.
      - XorNot 4y ago
        LOL.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II
        wazer5 4y ago
        Most of us alive are thinking of the last 75 years.
        XorNot 4y ago
        Ironically this only further proves the point: US expansionist foreign policy would not have been checked by giving the US what it wanted. There was no version of Iraq complying with the UN which was going to prevent the neo-conservatives from getting their regime change invasion in 2003. The only preventative measures which would've worked would be diplomatic and economic counter-pressure from the UN and more specifically Europe and other NATO allies, or substantial military build up capable of seriously endangering US conventional forces. Ukraine would be in a much different military position today if it were a pariah state, as opposed to a nation declaring a strong intent to join both the EU and NATO. Turns out diplomacy, allies and soft-power are actually kind of useful things when you're not the dominant military hegemon.
    - panick21_ 4y ago
      Yes. The lesson from history is that no appeasement should ever be done. Any war, no matter how small or over how little a thing, MUST ALWAYS BE TOTAL. No war should ever end until one nation enacts genocide on another. Great plan.
  - wongarsu 4y ago
    Blowing up dozens of satellites would start a chain reaction that if left unchecked will eventually bring down all of them. But I doubt it would happen over a timeframe that's useful for this war. We arguably are already in a Kessler syndrome situation where fragments are created faster than they deorbit, but like any exponential process it starts out incredibly slow. Space is big. The average breakup seems to create about 300 fragments [1], so if Russia blows up 100 Starlink satellites that's 30,000 bullets that have to randomly hit another 3500 objects spread over an area roughly the area of the surface of the earth. Except that it's worse because space is 3-dimensional and most bullets will spend little time at that altitude, and eventually deorbit. Over a decade it will do a lot of damage, and at some point things will escalate to a point where it's hard to handle. But Russia needs results within weeks or at most months. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_space_debris_producing_events https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_space_debris_producing...
    - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
      > Space is big. Satellites are usually in orbit, not randomly in a space, so your target is to make a mess from that given orbit, not to try to mess up whole space.
    - panick21_ 4y ago
      No it wouldn't bring down all of them. They are not all on the same level and they can raise and lower their level. Debris analysis would be done and the fleet would be commanded to move strategically. Causing a chain reaction is significantly more difficult then people think.

XorNot 4y ago

SpaceX wasn't worried about any of these issues until, mysteriously, "SpaceX" suddenly was coincidental to Elon Musk having his Twitter breakdown when he decided he personally was going to negotiate peace for Ukraine[1] and was promptly rebuffed by the Ukrainian foreign minister. Then, totally coincidentally[2] suddenly "SpaceX" had very big corporate concerns about how Starlink was used and also wanted more money from the DoD at a higher commercial rate[3] and... You know, just a whole pile of totally normal coincidences... [1] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1576969255031296000 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1576969255031296000 [2] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1579094238998171648 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1579094238998171648 [3] https://edition.cnn.com/2022/10/13/politics/elon-musk-spacex-starlink-ukraine/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/10/13/politics/elon-musk-spacex...

wazer5 4y ago
Biden administration decided to halt plans to weaponize space started under Trump. This mothballing decision was made in early 2022 and led to said reactions by Elon.
SyzygistSix 4y ago
>SpaceX wasn't worried about any of these issues until... If they weren't worried about these issues, why are they very explicitly spelled out in the Starlink terms of service? The issue came up because Ukraine violated the terms of service by using them as command/control of an explosive drone boat system. You're just making things up.

ashwagary 4y ago

>SpaceX is able to put them up faster than Russia could shoot them down This doesnt seem correct to me. Building, launching, and positioning replacement satellites to fill gaps in service seems like it would take much more effort and cost than a takedown. Can you further expand on why you think your claim is accurate?

dotnet00 4y ago
Russia doesn't have 3500 ASAT missiles and can't build (and launch) them at a rate of ~50 per week (it's estimated that they produce ~50 cruise missiles per month). Admittedly they don't have to shoot down 3500 sats, probably only the sats in the group servicing Ukraine, but that's still a couple hundred sats and thus, likely more than the Russian ASAT stockpile.
- yencabulator 4y ago
  The only two ways I can see to make ASAT logistics work against large constellations like Starlink is if they figure out laser-based ASAT or an in-orbit attack mechanism that shoots multiple cheap missiles/bullets (avoiding expensive separate launch per target). Neither sounds impossible, though.
  - dotnet00 4y ago
    Yeah it's difficult to envision a truly cost effective ASAT measure, "shooting" bullets is deceptive in that it'd still require carrying the large amount of fuel needed to effectively change orbit (especially for changing inclination) and would be a bit too messy in terms of spread of the resulting debris. Another interesting and clean approach might be jamming the satellites from orbit. You can't go after all the satellites, but since you can predict which ones will be over when you're doing something important, you can launch vehicles to approach specifically those and jam them at close range.