3 ms·

Everyone wants to call themselves middle class. $60,000 a year? Middle class. $600,000 a year? Upper middle class. Where is the lower class? Where is the upper

Everyone wants to call themselves middle class. $60,000 a year? Middle class. $600,000 a year? Upper middle class. Where is the lower class? Where is the upper class? I swear people on this site making >$500,000 a year act poorer than my family members making $90,000.

KRAKRISMOTT 4y ago
The post tax amount is only slightly more than twice what your family members make, especially if they live in low tax states. It doesn't go very far in expensive states. A slightly nicer car, a somewhat bigger house, and perhaps a few years earlier retirement. It hardly qualifies as elite by any means of the word.
- xboxnolifes 4y ago
  Brother, all of the numbers are pre-tax. People making $90,000 a year pay tax too. It's going to be more than 3 times the take home. I didn't say it makes them elite. Nowhere did I even use the word. But these two salaries don't fall into the same bucket called "middle class". The elites aren't working jobs for money.
bee_rider 4y ago
I’m under the impression that “middle class” vs “working class” and “upper class” was conventionally more about labor relations. If you derive your income from ownership, you are upper class. If you derive it from the value of your work work, you are working class. In between we have a class of people with high-value professions and/or assets such that they are basically able to make their own employment decisions without any real discomfort. Merchants I think were the go-to historical example, I’d put highly paid contractors in that class nowadays. This class is literally the class in between the of the other two, aka the middle class. If you own a company that employs people, you are upper class. If the boss (maybe the person contracting you) asks you to do something unethical or dangerous and you tell them to get bent with 0 worry as to your next paycheck, you are middle class. If the former scenario happens and you consider doing the bad thing because you’d rather not be homeless, you are working class and should probably think about forming a union or something. Depending on your expenses, you could be middle class at 90k and working class at 600k, but if I was working class at 600k… I’d look into getting my expenses under control… Often in the US we say “middle class” when we actually mean “median income.” It isn’t great.
- xboxnolifes 4y ago
  While I like the distinction between working and owning class, i think your given distinction for upper class is really bad. "If you own a company that employs people, you are upper class." Tons of people own companies where they employ people, but still put in 50 hour work weeks and bring home less than $100,000 a year (or worse) without growing the company's value. In this discussion's context, I would put the staff engineer making $600,000 way ahead. Owning cash is still asset ownership. Owning a failing business is not necessary better than owning hundreds of thousands of dollars. Plus, owning stock is still business ownership. The quantity of ownership is important, otherwise any American with an invested 401k is part of the owning class. I prefer the distinction of: "If you need to work to live, you are the working class". Though even that falls apart when talking strictly about income, as different people use their money differently. One person may turn $200,000 salary into early retirement while another lives paycheck to paycheck until death.
  - bee_rider 4y ago
    Hmm, yeah I take it that the description is not perfect there. That said, I’m not sure how to fix it. The point really is that it isn’t a better vs worse score or something. Hypothetically the staff engineer could be blowing that $600k on… I dunno, I can’t imagine how to waste $600k a year, boats I guess, and not end up with the assets. It is definitely an extreme case, though.

KRAKRISMOTT 4y ago

The post tax amount is only slightly more than twice what your family members make, especially if they live in low tax states. It doesn't go very far in expensive states. A slightly nicer car, a somewhat bigger house, and perhaps a few years earlier retirement. It hardly qualifies as elite by any means of the word.

xboxnolifes 4y ago
Brother, all of the numbers are pre-tax. People making $90,000 a year pay tax too. It's going to be more than 3 times the take home. I didn't say it makes them elite. Nowhere did I even use the word. But these two salaries don't fall into the same bucket called "middle class". The elites aren't working jobs for money.

bee_rider 4y ago

I’m under the impression that “middle class” vs “working class” and “upper class” was conventionally more about labor relations. If you derive your income from ownership, you are upper class. If you derive it from the value of your work work, you are working class. In between we have a class of people with high-value professions and/or assets such that they are basically able to make their own employment decisions without any real discomfort. Merchants I think were the go-to historical example, I’d put highly paid contractors in that class nowadays. This class is literally the class in between the of the other two, aka the middle class. If you own a company that employs people, you are upper class. If the boss (maybe the person contracting you) asks you to do something unethical or dangerous and you tell them to get bent with 0 worry as to your next paycheck, you are middle class. If the former scenario happens and you consider doing the bad thing because you’d rather not be homeless, you are working class and should probably think about forming a union or something. Depending on your expenses, you could be middle class at 90k and working class at 600k, but if I was working class at 600k… I’d look into getting my expenses under control… Often in the US we say “middle class” when we actually mean “median income.” It isn’t great.

xboxnolifes 4y ago
While I like the distinction between working and owning class, i think your given distinction for upper class is really bad. "If you own a company that employs people, you are upper class." Tons of people own companies where they employ people, but still put in 50 hour work weeks and bring home less than $100,000 a year (or worse) without growing the company's value. In this discussion's context, I would put the staff engineer making $600,000 way ahead. Owning cash is still asset ownership. Owning a failing business is not necessary better than owning hundreds of thousands of dollars. Plus, owning stock is still business ownership. The quantity of ownership is important, otherwise any American with an invested 401k is part of the owning class. I prefer the distinction of: "If you need to work to live, you are the working class". Though even that falls apart when talking strictly about income, as different people use their money differently. One person may turn $200,000 salary into early retirement while another lives paycheck to paycheck until death.
- bee_rider 4y ago
  Hmm, yeah I take it that the description is not perfect there. That said, I’m not sure how to fix it. The point really is that it isn’t a better vs worse score or something. Hypothetically the staff engineer could be blowing that $600k on… I dunno, I can’t imagine how to waste $600k a year, boats I guess, and not end up with the assets. It is definitely an extreme case, though.