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For sure. I realize that my moving to the country to get some space means that the people who were here before me have a little less of it. And the people who c

For sure. I realize that my moving to the country to get some space means that the people who were here before me have a little less of it. And the people who come after me mean that I'll have less. It's human nature to say "I want a house out here, but I don't want anyone else to have one". I try not to have that attitude, but I recognize the paradox. I don't know what the solution to sprawl is. I was merely answering the question of why everyone isn't on board with the high-rise lifestyle. "Just put everyone in skyscrapers" is one of those obvious solutions that fails to account for human nature. People aren't widgets that can just be "put" somewhere.

strogonoff 4y ago
You completely and utterly missed my point, which was questioning why many people in the US and parts of Europe find high density living distasteful and how to overcome that sentiment—high density living quite literally being the only answer to sprawl and unfolding ecological disaster, on which I agree with TFA—rather than trying to figure out how to put people somewhere against their will.
- roarcher 4y ago
  Maybe I worded things poorly, but I understood your point: everyone would want to live in high-density housing if only they were better informed of how great it is. My point is that that's flat out wrong. Many people know from experience what that life entails and want nothing to do with it. And yes, that includes the idealized fantasy version you present in other comments, even if that actually existed. The "put" thing comes from my perception that you think the only reason someone could disagree with you on this is because they're misinformed. Maybe I've got you all wrong, but that mindset tends to eventually feel justified in forcing people to do things "for their own good". I'll reply to your other comment here so we don't have to juggle multiple threads of conversation: Anecdotally, my experience of cities vs. small towns has been the opposite of yours. Almost every apartment complex I've lived in has had one "nosy neighbor" that insists on gossiping about everyone's affairs and causing drama with everyone they can sink their social hooks into. But that's not really relevant--you prefer cities and I prefer small towns. That's fine. I'm perfectly happy for everyone to live in whichever of those suits them best, or some other arrangement. You're the one who wants to prescribe a one-size-fits-all lifestyle for everyone.
  - strogonoff 4y ago
    > Maybe I worded things poorly, but I understood your point: everyone would want to live in high-density housing if only they were better informed of how great it is. Would you want to stop using disposable plastic straws because of how awesome paper straws are? No. Would you want to stop using them if it was required to stop microplastics from appearing in your blood stream and organ tissue? Let’s imagine a positive answer for a moment. Now, apparently there are people who consider abandoning plastic straws absolutely hands-down unthinkable sacrilege. So the natural question is: why? Let’s pretend their refusal to ditch plastic straws actually hurts not only theirs but also your own body and bodies of your children, so you really want to find out the answer. Eventually we might find out that some people really hate paper straws because they become soggy quickly and give paper taste to their drinks. While I don’t think either argument against paper straws (which are, incidentally, not the only alternative) outweighs the harm from the prevalence of single-use plastic straws, I can at least understand the reasoning because I, too, can notice the taste and the sogginess. That’s one analogy; so I want to know what that argument is with regards to high-density living. The arguments I heard so far are mostly misguided (no forests nearby!), refer to problems not specific to high density living (nosy neighbors!), and such. > Many people know from experience what that life entails and want nothing to do with it. Every time I talk about it in various crowds, online and off, all counter-arguments come exclusively from people who grew up in suburbia, smaller or sprawling low-density towns and cities, and they have a very skewed picture that is mostly a product of their imagination. If you have lived in a well-planned high-density (say at least 20 thousand people per square kilometer of residential area) city, you’d be the first! > And yes, that includes the idealized fantasy version you present in other comments, even if that actually existed As I wrote, the technology to live comfortably with little footprint is here—I didn’t mention it’s applied in practice much less evenly distributed. And it is not applied in practice because it’s not popular, so such areas are simply not built. And it’s not popular… Because? This is the question we’re addressing here. So let’s see what is the argument from you, as someone who lived in high-density urban areas with apparently adverse experience that is unique to those areas. > Almost every apartment complex I've lived in has had one "nosy neighbor" that insists on gossiping about everyone's affairs and causing drama with everyone they can sink their social hooks into. Did you ever have an issue with neighbors in sparser areas (like low rise apartment buildings or standalone housing)? I’ve had plenty. Shady people hanging around, people renting out flats or standalone houses to loud party goers, etc. Could it be that it isn’t about high or low density but about something else, like crime rates, mental health care, regulation of short term rentals, education availability, unemployment levels, poverty? By the way, in my experience it’s significantly more acute in lower density suburbia and sparse cities because there’s few enough people that it feels not only rude to not engage but also unsafe because if a person whom you can expect to see periodically turns out to be unstable there may be no witnesses and/or the police may be too far away to respond in timely manner. To sum up, while it doesn’t have much to do with higher density living, this is the only argument on the substance that you have put forward. Thanks! > But that's not really relevant--you prefer cities and I prefer small towns. That's fine. Not really, no. Assuming limiting humanity’s footprint is the only feasible option in the future, people like you will either be highly uncomfortable or sabotage the future of the planet. Neither is a good outcome.

strogonoff 4y ago

You completely and utterly missed my point, which was questioning why many people in the US and parts of Europe find high density living distasteful and how to overcome that sentiment—high density living quite literally being the only answer to sprawl and unfolding ecological disaster, on which I agree with TFA—rather than trying to figure out how to put people somewhere against their will.

roarcher 4y ago
Maybe I worded things poorly, but I understood your point: everyone would want to live in high-density housing if only they were better informed of how great it is. My point is that that's flat out wrong. Many people know from experience what that life entails and want nothing to do with it. And yes, that includes the idealized fantasy version you present in other comments, even if that actually existed. The "put" thing comes from my perception that you think the only reason someone could disagree with you on this is because they're misinformed. Maybe I've got you all wrong, but that mindset tends to eventually feel justified in forcing people to do things "for their own good". I'll reply to your other comment here so we don't have to juggle multiple threads of conversation: Anecdotally, my experience of cities vs. small towns has been the opposite of yours. Almost every apartment complex I've lived in has had one "nosy neighbor" that insists on gossiping about everyone's affairs and causing drama with everyone they can sink their social hooks into. But that's not really relevant--you prefer cities and I prefer small towns. That's fine. I'm perfectly happy for everyone to live in whichever of those suits them best, or some other arrangement. You're the one who wants to prescribe a one-size-fits-all lifestyle for everyone.
- strogonoff 4y ago
  > Maybe I worded things poorly, but I understood your point: everyone would want to live in high-density housing if only they were better informed of how great it is. Would you want to stop using disposable plastic straws because of how awesome paper straws are? No. Would you want to stop using them if it was required to stop microplastics from appearing in your blood stream and organ tissue? Let’s imagine a positive answer for a moment. Now, apparently there are people who consider abandoning plastic straws absolutely hands-down unthinkable sacrilege. So the natural question is: why? Let’s pretend their refusal to ditch plastic straws actually hurts not only theirs but also your own body and bodies of your children, so you really want to find out the answer. Eventually we might find out that some people really hate paper straws because they become soggy quickly and give paper taste to their drinks. While I don’t think either argument against paper straws (which are, incidentally, not the only alternative) outweighs the harm from the prevalence of single-use plastic straws, I can at least understand the reasoning because I, too, can notice the taste and the sogginess. That’s one analogy; so I want to know what that argument is with regards to high-density living. The arguments I heard so far are mostly misguided (no forests nearby!), refer to problems not specific to high density living (nosy neighbors!), and such. > Many people know from experience what that life entails and want nothing to do with it. Every time I talk about it in various crowds, online and off, all counter-arguments come exclusively from people who grew up in suburbia, smaller or sprawling low-density towns and cities, and they have a very skewed picture that is mostly a product of their imagination. If you have lived in a well-planned high-density (say at least 20 thousand people per square kilometer of residential area) city, you’d be the first! > And yes, that includes the idealized fantasy version you present in other comments, even if that actually existed As I wrote, the technology to live comfortably with little footprint is here—I didn’t mention it’s applied in practice much less evenly distributed. And it is not applied in practice because it’s not popular, so such areas are simply not built. And it’s not popular… Because? This is the question we’re addressing here. So let’s see what is the argument from you, as someone who lived in high-density urban areas with apparently adverse experience that is unique to those areas. > Almost every apartment complex I've lived in has had one "nosy neighbor" that insists on gossiping about everyone's affairs and causing drama with everyone they can sink their social hooks into. Did you ever have an issue with neighbors in sparser areas (like low rise apartment buildings or standalone housing)? I’ve had plenty. Shady people hanging around, people renting out flats or standalone houses to loud party goers, etc. Could it be that it isn’t about high or low density but about something else, like crime rates, mental health care, regulation of short term rentals, education availability, unemployment levels, poverty? By the way, in my experience it’s significantly more acute in lower density suburbia and sparse cities because there’s few enough people that it feels not only rude to not engage but also unsafe because if a person whom you can expect to see periodically turns out to be unstable there may be no witnesses and/or the police may be too far away to respond in timely manner. To sum up, while it doesn’t have much to do with higher density living, this is the only argument on the substance that you have put forward. Thanks! > But that's not really relevant--you prefer cities and I prefer small towns. That's fine. Not really, no. Assuming limiting humanity’s footprint is the only feasible option in the future, people like you will either be highly uncomfortable or sabotage the future of the planet. Neither is a good outcome.